X-bit labs

Started by: Anemone | Date 10/20/05

Comments: 16 | Last Comment:  08/25/06

[1-13]

1. 1 Be careful of the word "should". Pin compatible still doesn't mean "you can upgrade your laptop to Merom when we ship it". It's close. But be careful.

2 He did not indicate that such a Merom user would gain 64 bit ability.

3 At the time of Yonah's shipping (Jan-Feb) you'd think Intel would at least be able to test a given notebook design from major mfg's and verify Merom will work in the design. That would offer a firmer guarantee.

These comments are testing the waters. Given that A64 "may" (they have a history of being late...) ship a new socket and new dual core mobile chips around this same Jan-Feb timeframe, Intel needs to have something to do battle. You can bet the 64 bit card is going to come up a lot in the verbal battle. Now making a mobile solution upgradeable to Merom would be a pretty big win, imo (braces for flames), but I have doubts on that side given the way those comments were made.

I guess we'll have to see. I can say it'll be nice to see both sides competing in 2006.

(1) STRIKE 1

Pin Compatible means you can remove a "Yonah" CPU out and replace it with a "Merom".

What it may not include is that the manufacturer of the motherboard must also provide a BIOS update to ensure all the features of the newer CPU will be used. (as in its correctly identified and its features are used)...Most will, as they want to save money when they introduce Merom or Conroe.

Why would any business want to waste money on new infrastructure if the existing one is perfectly fine for the future?


(2) STRIKE 2
You must be either in self denial or living under a rock, as Merom and Conroe WILL have 64bit capability. Merom and Conroe are designated to REPLACE the P4. Why in the world would you leave a feature like 64bit out?

And when that happens, what kind of weak point will you raise then?


(3) STRIKE 3

I don't think you get how things work in the real world.
I also can tell you ain't no engineer.

Take for example, the current Socket 939/940.

AMD wrote the specs (electrical and physical) for it. If mobo manufacturers followed the spec closely, then there is little or no issue with dual-core.

However, if the mobo maker "goes cheap" and cuts corners, you will get issues with compatibility with higher end CPUs.

This has become a fact as some mobo manufacturers of Socket Socket939/940 mobos confirm that their mobos do not work with dual-core. They cut corners to offer a cheap solution, but sacrificed forward compatibility. (The only exception is when VIA screwed up with their K8T890 chipset...That doesn't work with dual-core anyway).

Mobo manufacturers do not physically need a Merom when designing a notebook. All the specs are setup by Intel. They do the testing and draw up the recommended specs, as well as provide reference board designs for manufacturers to follow. (Heck, its the same for Nvidia, ATI, etc, etc).

All the makers need to do is follow them and design their systems around Intel specifications.

Intel doesn't specifically test every single mobo (desktop or notebook) out there, they expect (and do get) all folks following their specs. When this happens, mobo makers get little or no issue, when they do final testing to claim 100% compatibility.

Its the same for AMD and the dual-core transition.

They do not hand out dual-core samples while manufacturers are designing their boards.

They only hand out samples when board makers need to finalise and confirm their compatibility lists...And that's way long after when the CPUs are already in the shops!


Your comments aren't testing any waters.
Its really testing how little you really know.


And in case you accuse me as some sort of Intel fanboi...
I use Sempronss, Opterons, PowerPCs, Pentium-Ms, VIA C3 CPUs on a wide variety of
systems. Heck, I even use AMD's Geode series for various embedded projects.


TA152H, in regards to Coppermine and Tualatin.
Intel didn't say they were pin-compatible. In fact, if you recall, they wanted everyone to upgrade unnecessarily to new mobos! They said it WAS NOT compatible!

It turns out the only difference wasn't all too great as companies like Upgradeware and PowerLeap made adapters which easily bypassed this issue. (by properly re-doing the electricals).

Of course, modders were there first when they fully exploited Intel's marketing
lies by demonstrating, with some modifications, that you can put a Tualatin CPU into a mobo
that isn't officially supporting it. (I own several of these mobos, and it ain't too hard to do).

2. Seems to me you are being a bit harsh. How many people open up their notebooks and change processors? I have never seen anyone doing it, and it has to represent a very minor percentage of people.

Keep in mind, this is the next desktop chip. It is replacing the Pentium 4 too. With that in mind, if it is not compatible with its predecessors, that is not at all unusual. Does the Athlon 64 use the same socket as the Athlon? No. Why hold it against Intel if their next generation does not?

This is a processor I am looking forward to. I consider the Athlon, Athlon 64 and Pentium 4 all junk and I although I have bought Athlons, I have essentially junked them. I still will not use anything but a Pentium III (mainly Tualatins) and I am glad Intel is going back to an upgraded version of it. The Pentium 4 was a horrible failure. I am really excited about the new Pentium III, it is a product I thought would never be made.

Considering the Pentium III was more than competitive with the Athlon, and this with a crippled FSB, this processor should own the Athlon 64, which is a pretty minimal improvement over the Athlon. Also, considering how well the current Pentium M does against the Athlon 64, it would be difficult to see AMD holding onto the performance lead. Still, they might, Intel has come out with really shockingly bad products before (Pentium 4, i820 chipset, etc...). I certainly hope not though, this looks like a promising technology.

What catches my eye is the 4 ALU pipes, if that is what they are saying with 4 issue execution engine. This would be the most an x86 processor has had so far, so Intel would have had to find a way of feeding it. If they have, it should easily outperform the Athlon 64. But, it is not entirely clear that is what it means. My instinct tells me it is probably just three, it is difficult to imagine feeding all four at once, but maybe they have an effective way.

With regards to 64-Bit, I think it is a VERY safe assumption they will have it, since it is replacing the Pentium 4. If it were only replacing the Pentium M, I agree it would be much less certain.

I agree completely on pin compatible. Look at the Tualatin and Coppermine. Same socket, but you couldn't use a Tualatin in a Coppermine motherboard.

One thing that I find a little annoying with these articles is the lack of understanding about pipelining. Most of the authors say a longer pipeline should make for higher clock speeds and lower IPC. This is a terrible generalization, and is often incorrect. If the pipeline takes more stages to do the same functions, yes, it will generally be true. But, this is not always the case. The perfect example is the Athlon 64. Everyone kept saying how they were surprised it did not clock higher. Well, it was because the stages added were to improve IPC, and were not extending the number of stages for existing functions. So, the net result was no improvement in clock speed, and higher IPC from more pipeline stages. You can't generalize without having more information.

Pin-compatible means that they are fully electrically compatible. That means that they use the same socket and the same pin-out and you can simply replace one with the other. After all, Smithfield uses the same socket as Prescotts but no one calls them pin-compatible. This does not mean, however, that the same bios will support them, nor does it mean that the motherboards will get the bios update needed.

I am perhaps a bit harsh, but I find that Intel has failed to impress for long enough, that I'm suspicious "now 2006 will be a great year for our products" is yet another letdown waiting to happen.

I am aware of it's also being a desktop chip. I'm also aware of the number of people who "would" replace a notebook chip if it were possible. For many notebooks it hasn't really been possible, which probably colors the reasons why you haven't seen it done. I'll balance that against the culture that often pervades today of "throw it away and buy a new one" which lends weight to you words, so I guess we shall have to wait and see as it becomes possible, how many do it.

A64 wasn't a stunning improvement over the Athlon, but it provided some useful improvements. The P4 was not as much of an improvement over the P3. I'm hopeful for Merom, but suspicious of both marketing promises, and the reality that the P4 presented (Intel not really at its best). I do recall Coppermine and yes the upgrade issues were many. I remember the first "active cooling" and how things changed then no?

If what I'm hearing rumour wise has any merit, IF you can upgrade a given machine from Yonah to Merom, you will not likely get the 64bit ability built into Merom. Remember the whole hyperthreading issue and how it could not be enabled in the bios? This might be similar. It's rumour and I'm honest about that, but several sources are saying the same thing. Caveat emptor.

4 ALU pipes would be quite good. However the efficiency of them is not yet clear, and we all know that the cycles needed to compute the math will play a big factor in how useful they turn out to be.

I guess I'll admit you are right about the pipelining. Another thing people are not highlighting is that one of the main strengths of the P-M is the 2mb high efficiency cache. I've watched, and in programs that exceed the cache, you watch a huge drop in performance. Of course the A64's do well in these instances because of that memory controller. I suspect the 4mb cache of the Merom is there for a similar reason. I am not saying the P-M is a dog, mind you, but many, many tests of it play to its strength in this area. As designers "aim" for higher spec cache cpu's in their projects (likely this will come simultaneously with 64 bit redesigns as well) faithful P-M based machines may not seem as fantastic as they do now.

Pipelines however need to be considered in light of the overall chip design. The longer pipeline = a faster, but lower IPC chip has been true more often than it has not been true. However, there are MANY factors to performance, such as the ALU's you mention, branch prediction, cache performance and more. In the end, its probably best to have fun theorizing then see how it performs on real programs and not canned benchmarks.

:)

3. 342,

I mentioned Powerleap in another remark on products (the dual cores), and buying them often isn't worth it. You add $40 for the cheap ones, and the server ones run over $200. So, at that point the price goes up. You end up with a new adapter, and a used motherboard when spending twice as much you end up with an new motherboard, and your old motherboard/CPU is still intact. So, not a great deal in most instances, but certainly some. As I mentioned remark on the Pressler, I do use a pair of Tualatin 1.4s in an Intel OR840 motherboard (with Powerleap's help, of course), which offers the best performance you can get for Tualatins. In this case, the cost is very high, but you can not get that performance with anything else. In most cases, you can just buy another motherboard.

I don't like running anything out of spec, because I use my mostly for servers and I can't have down time. Getting things to work and getting them to work reliably over time are two different things. For example, you can put a Pentium III-S in a 815 B-stepping motherboard, but you can expect to shorten its life because the server and desktop versions don't like power the same way. They are "pin compatible", but they shouldn't be used in the opposite's motherboard because they have different load line characteristics. Also, I don't like using Tualatins without a VRM 8.5, so the only useful products for using it in an AGTL+ motherboard would be those like Powerleap's. As I alluded to, the only problem with them is the high cost of the SMP adapters. They work great, but sooooo expensive.

And obviously it is very easy to make products work with sockets they were not made for. Most of the overdrive chips had circuitry to do just that. My point was Intel often does not worry too much about chip compatibility with sockets too much, and I would be a little surprised if they made the next generation compatible with notebooks because it means so little compared to other situations where they made them incompatible. Now, if they have no reason not to, I guess they will. But, who upgrades notebook processors anyway? But, it at least it creates fewer problems for motherboard makers.

I guess I don't see the whole point of this dual core on the current notebook argument. How many people want a dual-core in their notebook? I would think the battery life would be more important for most people and an extremely insignificant number would want to upgrade it. So, if the old motherboards don't support new dual core processors, I don't really see that as too important a point. I think it would be almost unique situations where anyone would want to.

With regards to the performance of the Pentium M, I think if you have four integer pipes, you have figured out a way to feed them. Maybe one will be a bit malnourished, but if you it's there, it has to be useful or Intel would have scratched it. But, I am not sure I am interpreting those remarks correctly.

Was the Pentium 4 any improvement over the Pentium III???? I think it sucks. I think an improved Pentium III would have been better, and apparently so does Intel now. The Pentium 4 is a new architecture, the Athlon 64 is an improved Athlon. I do not mean that as an insult to AMD, I think Intel made a mistake with the Pentium 4 as I have said. I think, considering how well the Tualatin did against the Athlon, this processor should be superior. I do not just mean in performance either. I will not use Athlons because they get so damn hot and use so much power they are not worth it, except in situations that demand it. Tualatins use much less power and offer the same or better performance clock normalized. Fast forward to 2006, and you might get a similar picture. If the Pentium V or whatever it is called (I think V would make sense, with Microsoft "Vista" coming out, it would be some sort of tie-in), is relatively close in performance (and I think it should surpass it) and uses less power and does not need an integrated memory controller, I think AMD has huge problems. I don't think performance is an absolute benchmark for processor superiority on the desktop anymore. For me, it certainly is not and I think most people understand now that there are more important factors to consider with performance. I think, based on what we know now, the Pentium V should exhibit superiority in things like power usage. Of course, only a fool thinks he can predict the future with certainty, so anything is possible.

4. What are the specifications for the Merom, it only states that it possesses a 4MB L2 Cache

They come in

2 GHZ
2.16 GHZ
2.33 GHZ

Is it a Quad Core Processor like the GILO??

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