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Discussion on Article:
AMD Dual-Core 65nm Chips Reach AMD’s Roadmap – Slides.

Started by: TA152H | Date 02/08/06 03:00:21 PM

Comments: 25 | Last Comment: 08/25/06 10:57:58 AM

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[1-18]

They're whistling past the graveyard being so far behind Intel. By the time they move to 65nm, Intel will be close to .45. Considering the Merom/Conroe should by all indications be considerably superior to the mediocre Athlon 64, and be on a smaller lithography for at least six months, AMD's going to have a very difficult competitive situation facing them.

Also, the first attempt at a smaller lithography is normally pretty lousy these days, and it is the subsequent ones that typically show a bigger advantage. AMD had better get their act together on manufacturing, with designs being so mature these days, manufacturing could easily be the major differentiator in the very near future.

[Posted by: TA152H | Date: 02/08/06 03:00:22 PM]

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Spoken like a true Intel fanboy. While 65nm would be nice, it's not like they NEED 65nm like Intel does. For Intel it was either cooler 65nm chips or keep putting out hot 90nm chips.

Mediocre Athlon64 indeed. . . .what the hell ever.

[Posted by: NightWatch | Date: 02/08/06 06:41:18 PM]

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+ expand thread (3 answers)

- collapse thread

You apparently couldn't understand that Merom/Conroe is coming out. Right now, Intel does need 65nm because the Pentium 4 is so poor. The Merom/Conroe promise to be much better, especially since the Yonah is already a very good processor and will be substantially improved.

Only an idiot would think that AMD can continue lag Intel in manufacturing while having such a mediocre design. There is nothing great about the Athlon 64, it struggles against the Yonah despite being larger and being a desktop chip. It uses more power as well. On top of this, the Athlon 64 has an on-die memory controller and still struggles. This is a great processor? Hardly. It's mediocre and the Pentium 4 is awful, so by comparison it's good. Compared to the Yonah, it isn't. Compared to something better than the Yonah, it's hard to see how it will look good.

On top of this, Intel is now introducing the Yonah into the server realm. This bodes poorly for AMD since in many applications it is clearly a better processor, considering the power efficiency.

I've been a backer of AMD for a long time, for well over 15 years, but they look weak moving into the future. I don't want Intel to get too strong again, so I'm concerned that AMD is so incompetent at manufacturing and seem to be self-righteous about it. They should be in a near panic being so far behind, because they have a ton of other disadvantages as well, being so small. This includes much less product and solution offerings, like compilers, chipsets, motherboards. Plus, economy of scale. Once the Pentium 4 is a bad memory, these things are going to come into play more. Right now, the Pentium 4 is such a poor chip, they can't tilt the balance.

Being over a year behind Intel in lithography is going to kill them in the long run. They better narrow that gap.

[Posted by: TA152H | Date: 02/08/06 07:12:11 PM]

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Yohan is being introduced on the server only on LV/ULV.
Intel is just doing this because this year, Fujitsu-Siemens, DELL, HP, IBM, SUN and many other will increase their AMD based products severely.
Intel must do something about it, so here it is.

"This includes much less product and solution offerings, like compilers, chipsets, motherboards"
You are right but who have been the one bridging some innovation? Who was the pusher of x64? The company that doesn’t do compilers but have done x64.

Being small means you have to concentrate all your energy on one thing, or you get screed, look at VIA for example (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/) they do almost everything, but none of them is good enough to get some special attention.

[Posted by: Kaz | Date: 02/09/06 05:35:38 AM]

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Kaz,

Yes, agreed on introduction, but that's an important segment and where Yonah is clearly superior. This is just the beginning of the switch from the Pentium 4, and it is a big improvement for Intel.

Again, no will say Pentium 4 was any good, so I will not dispute they had to do something. We agree on this completely. But, moving Yonah into that space changes it completely, now Intel has a very good product where they didn't.

I disagree that x86-64 is a major innovation, or really that AMD does much innovation at all. I think that is their strength, they stick with known things and make them work. x86-64 is a very straightforward change, and doesn't require anything new. Itanium was much more ambitious and innovative, but is it good? I'm not sure on that one. The Pentium 4 was innovative, but was it good? Well, no. It sucks bad. So, sometimes being new and advanced isn't always great if it doesn't help where the rubber meets the road. Intel has been really bad at this, AMD has been conservative and effective. But, with Merom/Conroe, et al, I think Intel is moving in this direction too.

Your remark about concentrating on one thing ignores the fact that a company is not a single being. Make no mistake, AMD has to develop chipsets from time to time just to release a new processor, but they don't sell them. Also, Intel has more people working on processors than AMD could even think about, despite having focus on multiple areas. Size does matter. Keep in mind also, if my compiler adds 10% to my processor, and our processors are the same performance, does the user really care where the performance came from? They just know software runs faster on my processor, and that's all that matters to them.

[Posted by: TA152H | Date: 02/09/06 01:23:35 PM]

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what

[Posted by: what | Date: 02/08/06 10:43:03 PM]

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Do you need glasses to read those articles comparing Yonah and A64?

The overall performance difference is none. Both do about the same. Yonah may win here, A64 may win there, but overall performance is in line with one another.

If A64 is mediocre, what's Yonah? A modified Pentium III design with a P4 bus and various powersaving features slapped in. Wow, superior innovation right there!

What you're saying, TA152H, is equivalent to labelling Windows a superior design to anything out there...When its clearly not. (and in truth, 60%+ of the webservers out there are Linux-based or some other Unix variation).

The key disadvantage to AMD is their limited resources, not the processor design. They don't have the same manufacturing capacity, R&D and marketing machine as Intel.

They don't have the resources to compete with Intel, one on one at EVERYTHING. They do what they can with the resources they have.

Even with your mental capacity, its not hard to figure out. Think about it. Intel currently has Itanium, P4/P-D, Pentium-M that covers the mobile, desktop, workstation and server markets.

There are 3 very different designs to chose from, based on your needs.

With AMD, they just use one design and make variations of it.

Sempron = K8, small cache.

Sempron64 = same as previous, but with AMD64 capability. Identical to A64 but with less cache.

A64 = Desktop/Workstation. Larger cache, dual-core models.

Opteron = Workstation/Server. As above, as well as SMP support.

And you expect AMD to compete 1 to 1 with Intel? Yeah, right. Already, you can see by AMD's attempts at using one design for almost everything, that they don't have the capacity to take on Intel head-on.

Seriously, TA152H...Get a life. You post every time there's an article about Intel or AMD.

BTW, your Intel reality distortion field is set too high. Consider toning it down, and coming back to the REAL WORLD.

[Posted by: Wayne | Date: 02/09/06 01:36:02 AM]

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+ expand thread (2 answers)

- collapse thread

Yonah is a notebook processor, with notebook chipset, notebook graphics, notebook network card, notebook wireless, ....

Turion/Athlon64 is a modified desktop/server with desktop chipset, desktop graphics, desktop network card, desktop wireless, ....

Now Yonah with all mobile high tech vs Turion with all desktop tech,
Who would you expect to win in the power consuming camp?

[Posted by: Kaz | Date: 02/09/06 05:16:34 AM]

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Wayne,

Are you able to understand English? Or plain stupid with an attitude?

I didn't say Intel currently has a better design. I said the Pentium 4 sucked and the Athlon 64 doesn't look good against the Yonah. The Yonah runs at roughly the same speed, has as smaller core, uses less power, isn't even a desktop chip, and isn't even what the Athlon 64 will be competing against for long.

Again, your poor reading comprehension illustrated my points, even though you had no idea you were doing it in your sub-literate way. AMD can't compete with Intel on everything, but they better get their manufacturing in order because their other disadvantages make it very important. Understand now? If their manufacturing were in line with Intel's it wouldn't be so bad, but, they are way behind and don't offer the other advantages Intel does. It's a bad, bad situation. They have to get their manufacturing up to snuff or they'll be in deep trouble once Intel has a competitive design.

Get a girlfriend so you learn some perspective and don't take negative remarks directed at AMD so personally. It's a damn company, don't get so worked up about it. Talk about getting a life.

[Posted by: TA152H | Date: 02/09/06 01:29:41 PM]

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I agree with TA152H,

Athlon 64 is a mediocre design,
But I must also say that Intel last attempts are even worst:

-Itanium: Intel attempt to get rid of x86 and their clones (AMD, Cyrix, ...), one of the biggest crap of all time. There are better performing designs from other companies (IBM, Sun) for the market where Itanium is aimed.

-Pentium4: Intel most adaptable microprocessor design, but is suffering from some bad manufacturing process or redesign since Prescott. Turned out also of the biggest crap of all time.

-Intel PentiumM: 0% of innovation still stands in time, a 1997 design still in use today (amazing). Very low power, but the question is if Intel keeps redesigning the 486 to hit higher speeds on current platforms should we also expect a very low power chip? I assume that the 486 manufactured on today process would hit what 1Watt? 5Watts maximum?
Last innovation on this design is the dual core with shared cache, but even that I assume that there will be times where a shared core cache will be faster, and other times dedicated core cache will be faster, time will tell.

TA152H, wait for the K9 that AMD keeps delaying, that one of the biggest things will be the ability to connect to co processors, I’m already imaging dedicated XML, JAVA, SQL accelerators, GPU, physics,... wait and see up to 80% performance boosts.

“Merom/Conroe should by all indications be considerably superior” lets hope so, or it will be the last intel processor crap.

[Posted by: Kaz | Date: 02/09/06 04:51:37 AM]

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Other thing TA152H,

Even if Merom/Conroe will only use 30W while AMD uses 45W/65W. People still go after AMD (like they have gone in the past) because AMD will be always cheaper.

Other thing is if AMD consumes more but runs faster than Merom/Conroe, people will go for the faster, because the problem of P4 is not just it's super power consuming, is the very poor performance it gives.

It’s not even an question of performance/watt ratio that Intel wants to bring into the market, because if it was that we would be talking of Via C7, mobile phones processors, …

[Posted by: Kaz | Date: 02/09/06 05:48:38 AM]

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+ expand thread (1 answer)

Hey TA152H, go troll somewhere else, nobody cares for your idiotic rants.

[Posted by: Pooper | Date: 02/09/06 09:04:19 AM]

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+ expand thread (1 answer)

Such a harsh population around here, I think Ill just stay clear of you nut jobs.

[Posted by: The_Starfox | Date: 02/09/06 11:18:58 AM]

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Athlon64 has no major weaknesses, unlike for example the Pentium 4 (D) [heat].
General performance is on all fronts excellent, whereas the Dothan has some areas where performance is noticeably behind. Still the Dothan is a great processor in a laptop, and I enjoy it very much in my T42.

A wish for the next AMD Athlon64 processor would be a similar TDP for next-gen dual-core compared to current generation single-core. I doubt that is possible without a die shrink.

[Posted by: Esben | Date: 02/10/06 02:59:06 PM]

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