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Discussion on Article:
Acer Ferrari 4005WLMi Notebook Review

Started by: Rookierookie | Date 03/24/06 06:53:00 PM
Comments: 47 | Last Comment:  09/01/07 07:12:05 AM

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1. 
This is another example of a bias towards AMD that is getting so common on the internet.

Why wasn't this compared against a high-end Pentium M based machine? Wow, what a novel idea, huh? This is so obvious it had to be deliberate. Of course, everyone knows the Pentium M would destroy it, and this would make AMD look bad. Instead Xbit does.

Why would anyone make a high end laptop based on the Turdion anyway? For the low end, it makes sense because it can save money, but for the high end, why would anyone want this clearly inferior processor? Hmmm, maybe for the x86-64. People often go for features that sound good but they will not benefit from. Probably from a average consumers perspective, buying something without this feature would seem like buying obsolescence because they don't understand how useless it would in a notebook. It is an easy mistake to make with a salesman saying all the right things to make it seem important, so that must be it.
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/25/06 05:23:12 AM]
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I've found XBit to be more biased towards Intel than biased towards AMD.

The fact that you write 'Turdion' shows that in fact, you are merely an Intel fanboi that doesn't like the fact that his favoured company's products aren't that amazing after all.
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/25/06 04:58:00 PM]
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More biased towards Intel huh? This is example of how they would not run a benchmark against the clearly superior Pentium M. They have no problems running the Pentium 4 against the Athlon 64. The Athlon 64 is better, so they run them, the Turdion 64 is a piece of crap, so they don't.

In the Presler release, they used the slower Intel chipset in the comparison, instead of the Nvidia chipset that clearly runs faster. Now, this site was not as bad as the others; they used the slow chipset but at least they didn't use the slowest motherboard out there using it. Still, they could have used Nvidia chipsets for both, but didn't.

A recent editorial about the Conroe was so biased it was shocking. It concluded it was unfair to compare a mid-level Conroe with a ultra-high end Athlon 64 (which hasn't even been released) because the Athlon 64 could show improvement between now and the time the Conroe would be introduced. Hmmm, a pre-released processor never shows improvement in the months before it is released, huh? Plus, it will be available in much higher clock speeds, etc...

It's strange, but I'm noticing a lot of this stuff going on in the net now. I think the big American site is the most even (I don't like using names because it's not really fair to this site to advertise for their opponents), but then they used the dreadfully slow Intel BadAxe motherboard while reviewing the new Presler. So, I'm still trying to find a consistent
pattern.

As far as being a "fanboy", you have the tail wagging the dog. I like whichever company puts out the best products, and I don't like products because one company puts them out. The Turdion is a piece of junk and clearly inferior product. I have been equally hard on the awful Pentium 4.

The Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest, are in fact amazing. I think they have surprised everyone. The current stuff is not, although the Pentium M is a very good product line, and the Yonah specifically is a very good processor. It falls quite a bit short of amazing though.
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/26/06 05:42:04 AM]
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100% with you.

There should have been one PentiumM vs the Turion, but not the core Duo.
And with the same hardware configuration: graphics card, ram, features, ... Acer have them, very easy too achieve.

The Intel chipset was used for review, like Intel used their one chipset to make the battle against FX62, it's OK because Intel does make chipsets, but maybe Intel could have used some Ati chipset with Conroe.
If they used same price point chipset/mobo to do the testing I don’t see nothing wrong with it, in fact do you remember when all sites used expansive motherboards with the Intel i850 with RDRAM VS the cheaper AMD ones with SDRAM/DDR, and the Intel P4 win reviews/benchmarks because the review used that specific chipset instead of for example Intel 845 with SDRAM or single channel DDR...

They could have used the Nvidia chipset, but to tell you the truth I don’t touch that, I would go all the way with Intel processor and Intel chipset (unless there is a nice price difference).

About the Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest, will be amazing?
I’m already disappointed that Woodcrest will be about the same performance than Opteron.
If Opteron = Athlon X2, then why Conroe so much faster than Athlon X2 and Woodcrest about the same performance/power consuming of Opteron?
Is the Opteron optimized for server applications? Or is the Conroe optimized for games?
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/27/06 02:43:19 AM]
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Kaz,

I disagree entirely about using an Intel chipset. If they use an Intel chipset, why not force AMD to use an AMD chipset? Ooops, wait, AMD is not competent enough to sell chipsets, so we should penalize Intel because they are? What????

Use the best against the best, especially since the same company uses both. This is a processor comparison, and you're trying to measure processor performance. Since both are available platforms, and from the same company, it's a much better comparison. This is particularly so since a lot of the people buying this processor will know enough to buy the highest performing chipset. Certainly no one would buy an Intel motherboard for performance. Reliability, yes. But did they measure that? Well, no, so stick to best versus best and don't penalize Intel because they make a supporting product AMD doesn't.

The problem with using same cost is that it is very easy to skew results. There are plenty of motherboards out there that cost the same, that have widely varying performance. You can pick the worst versus the best for the competitor, and that will make a big difference in results. Just look at the BadAxe performance. They did a test on this motherboard on another site, and it got totally annihilated by the other motherboards. It was dead last in almost every test, and by a lot. So they then use this motherboard to test it against the Athlon 64. It's so obviously a bias, but no one notices it. Intel motherboards are not about performance, they are rock solid. They relax timings for that reason. So, you don't compare performance with them against AMD motherboards, you use comparable motherboards that are made to perform. It's not about price.

With regards to earlier benchmarks against AMD and Intel, I disagree with you. If Intel has a platform that supports better memory or whatever, than you use it. You test best against best. The reason being, if I am out there looking for a new computer or new parts, I can get these parts. I am not going to buy the slowest parts out there when I can get faster ones, so using slow parts in a comparison is kind of pointless, but I'll be choosing between the best for each platform. If I can't buy an AMD platform with, say, RDRAM then that is a liability to that platform that is relevant. I agree though, you have to mention price in the reviews. If the Intel platform costs $1500 and outperforms the AMD platform by 5%, both because of RDRAM, not too many people will find it to be worth it. So, yes, price is important, but in these high-end comparisons, I think they should show best versus best instead of trying to be cute and showing Intel on a sub-ideal platform.

Why wouldn't you touch Nvidia? Because they are the best performing chipset for Intel processors? Or because that is what was used for AMD? Or, is it because you forced AMD to use an AMD chipset, you should force Intel to use an Intel chipset? Which one?

I have no idea why you think the Woodcrest is the same performance as the Opteron. Everything I have seen shows it blowing it out of the water. The results they showed when compared to a Sun based Opteron represented an ugly pounding. However, as you go to more processor units, not cores, you would expect Intel to perform worse and worse because they still use a shared FSB and have one memory controller. So probably with 16 dual cores (meaning 32 processors), the Opteron would show advantages because of the way memory is accessed. Do not hold me to 16, I am just pulling a number out of my head, it may be less or more, but my point is, as you go higher you should see AMD solutions look better. It's got nothing to do with the architecture, but just with the way they each access memory.

I'm not sure this is a big deal for Intel though, since for big iron they have the Itanium 2. It's not really where they want to position x86.

0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/27/06 04:45:51 AM]
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OK,
For you is the best with the best, or better fastest against the fastest, even if that will mislead people in the end.

My point was that many people I know have gone after the P4 because they saw the P4 2.4 with I850 with RDRAM win the test/bench/review, but then they go out to the store an bought some ASUS with a SIS chipset with SDRAM or DDR (without dual channel capability) and think that their system was on par with the one they saw.

And about the NVIDIA I think their chipset sucks or their driver sucks (and ATI has the fame). I have run in a lot of problems with "their" mobos, memory incompatible problems and others.
I think the best chipset company out there is Uli or even Ati.
Because with VIA I have excellent success rate, but also some huge problems, they have very good chipsets, but very bad ones too.
SIS very stable, but lack drivers that help to improve the performance and of course features.

Too bad NVIDIA bought Uli, I only hope they don’t screw the company has they have done with 3DFX.
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/27/06 05:10:59 AM]
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From a TechReport review it appears that the Turion compares quite well with the Pentium-M 2.13GHz (IIRC). The Pentium-M may be superior to the P4 in terms of gaming, but it's poor floating performance means that it won't destroy the Turion.

A 2.5GHz Pentium-M Dothan competes quite well with an Athlon 64 4000+. So a single-channel Turion 2.0Ghz, about the level of a 3000+ S939, should be comparable to a 1.6-1.8GHz Pentium-M.
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/25/06 09:50:52 PM]
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Rookie,

Who is talking about gaming? You think most people buy laptops so they can play games on them? I think that even a little thought would indicate that's not the case and the power envelope in a laptop would not allow even close to top quality video cards and very high processor clock speeds. Plus, memory, fast hard drives, etc...

There currently exist benchmarks that compared the two processors, and the Intel solution easily destroys it. But then, you would know this if they made an obvious comparison for their review. That's my complaint. Comparing an AMD based solution with an Intel based solution is kind of common, and expected, isn't it?

The only thing I could say in their defense is because they are not a big site, maybe they don't have the resources to test against a proper Intel solution. This is possible, but I think with some effort on their part, they have enough readers that they could get a laptop maker lend them a review machine. So, I think it is a deliberate bias so as not to show people what a piece of crap this processor is.
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/26/06 05:56:29 AM]
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This is the article I saw.

http://techreport.com/reviews/2006q1/pentiumm-vs-turion64/index.x?pg=1

The reviewer puts the Turion 64 ML-44 on the same level as, if not higher than, the Pentium M 760.

Care to show your proofs as well?
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/26/06 08:39:26 AM]
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And in addition, I doubt very many people would want to take such a notebooks on the go - those that do neet mobile notebooks would be buying slim models with ULV Pentium-Ms and integrated graphics. This notebook is clearly targeted towards the DTR market, the people that want desktop capabilities that still has some degree of mobility. The X700 on this notebooks shows that Acer intends its audience to play games on them, although probably not at maxed out graphic levels.

On the top quality video cards and processors...there are notebooks with FX-60 and 7800GTX SLI. Not what most people would call "mobile", but they ARE, for all intents and purposes, notebooks.

I agree, however, that it would have been a simple matter to get a comparable Pentium-M notebook; Acer themselves offer quite a few P-M + DDR2 system with X700 graphics that don't break the bank either. Perhaps Xbitlabs could add tests done with such a system to this review?
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/26/06 08:44:15 AM]
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You're joking, right? You compare a 2.4 GHz with a 2.0 GHz, and they are close, and this is a victory for AMD? Clearly even a 2.13 GHz part would beat the lowly Turdion at 2.4 GHz. How can you use this as proof? Did you also notice the memory timings were CAS of 4 for the Pentium M and 2 for the Turdion? Seems to me getting CAS of 3 would be pretty easy for the Pentium M.

That review was atrocious, it didn't even mention the power envelope, whic h is extremely important for notebook buyers.

So, you have a much more power hungry processor competing with a much lower clocked, much lower power processor, with memory slower than necessary, and they are close in performance with each winning some tests, and this is good for AMD? I am surprised a 2.0 GHz Pentium M with slow memory,was competitive in performance to a 2.4 GHz Turdion, I had no idea it was that lousy. The 2.13 would have probably beaten it, which is quite sad since it also uses a lot less power.

This is a processor for people that can't afford superior Intel technology. As I said, this is fine for the low and mid level notebooks, but for the high-end, it doesn't measure up. The price is nice though, so certainly it has a place, but for a high-end machine, it makes no sense. Intel will no doubt keep overcharging for the Pentium M, and luckily AMD is there to give people choices, but that doesn't make it a good processor. It just means Intel is ripping people off with their high prices.
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/26/06 10:19:56 AM]
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"You're joking, right? You compare a 2.4 GHz with a 2.0 GHz, and they are close, and this is a victory for AMD? Clearly even a 2.13 GHz part would beat the lowly Turdion at 2.4 GHz. How can you use this as proof? Did you also notice the memory timings were CAS of 4 for the Pentium M and 2 for the Turdion? Seems to me getting CAS of 3 would be pretty easy for the Pentium M."
I'd have thought that you knew enough to discount clock rates.
Let's say that Intel now slashes the price of the Pentium XE 965 to, say, $300. It beats the Athlon 64 X2 3800+. Then Intel wins, period, and no one is going to care that the Intel processor is clocked nearly twice as high as the AMD one (except perhaps those who have high requirements on power consumption and heat).

On the latency issue it is true that a 2.5 vs 3 latency would have been a fairer comparison. It might make the Pentium M win out on drawn or close tests. But that would not have changed the fact that the Turion does, in fact, at least match the Pentium M on performance.

"That review was atrocious, it didn't even mention the power envelope, whic h is extremely important for notebook buyers. "
I'm not sure what you meant, because there is a page on power consumption.

"The 2.13 would have probably beaten it, which is quite sad since it also uses a lot less power."
I'm sorry, but I don't think that a 6.5% increase in performance is enough to make the difference between the 2.13GHz and the ML-44 a clean win. Not being able to find a price comparison table on Intel's website, I can't give an exact price for the 2.13GHz, but I do believe that it's priced higher than the ML-44.

As for the comment starting with "Please don't tell me that a notebook weighing less than 7 pounds is too heavy to easily carry..."

I'll say only this - we live in different environments, and we see different things; I guess I have a different definition of "desktop replacement" than you do, and a different view on video games and the people playing them, so I'm not going to argue any further on that point.
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/26/06 08:04:26 PM]
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You may be right, but,

If I’m going to buy a reused notebook two years for now I go for a Turion machine, right?

Because exactly what you said, X86-64.

It will be the feature of the future, not Conroe, not Core Duo, not Athlon X2, but x86-64.

Of course today, is not only useless, but also pointless because is consuming power and isn’t used (5W~10W). But if Intel didn’t integrate SSE on their processors we weren’t using it yet, isn’t that right?
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/27/06 02:13:42 AM]
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2. 
Yet another poorly thought out notebook design!
Why the heII do manufacturers stick the USB ports right where most would want to put their mouse? Then they put the remaining ports right where many probably wish to put paper notes or other material needed while working?

Who cares how fast or slick it is when the basic design ergonomics suck!

This is not just Acer but practically every notebook made in the last 12 months. It is about time notebook reviews call manufacturers to task over these obvious design shortcomings!

I need my notebook to be functional, I don't like tangles of cables cluttering my desk space. I like to use a good quality mouse instead of a clumsy touch pad which is only practical when you're not workng at a desk.
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/26/06 02:40:06 AM]
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Erm...aren't those USB ports on the right just to help you connect your mouse?
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/26/06 04:59:33 AM]
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Chainsaw,

While I understand your frustration with ergonomics, and completely agree, I'm unclear specifically on what bothers you.

You complain about the USB port location, because you want to put a mouse there. This is where you plug your mouse in, so I am not sure what is bothering you. It is because it is so close to where you actually want to use your mouse, the mouse cord gets in the way and becomes problematic? If so, have you considered looking for a short tail variety of mouse? They probably exist, and if they don't you can make one.

Where would you have put the ports? In the back of the computer? Is what bothers you, in a nutshell, that they put the ports on the side instead of the back where it would be less competitive with other uses for deskspace?

I think some of this is basic stupidity. They saw that people didn't like connecting and disconnecting from their computers in the back, so they applied it to laptops since it was more common to them. However, it is a completely different experience with a laptop, since it is so easy to maneuver, it makes almost difference in terms of difficulty to plug things in, whereas with a typical tower, moving the computer is not an efficient way to solve the problem.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a laptop on the desktop, and a laptop on the, ummm, laptop, have slightly conflicting requirements. For example, a DVD player that opened out the front would be fine for the desktop, but would be far less than ideal for someone on the road. The side door would be better. On the desktop, the side opening might conflict more with papers and the mouse, etc...

0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/26/06 06:09:40 AM]
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3. 
How can the DC ( I assume this is battery power) be brighter than the AC(wall outlet power)?
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/26/06 09:53:16 AM]
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4. 
I have one of these babies and have had nothing but trouble. Constent problems from the day i got it out of the box. Have had it in for repairs 3 times in the 4 months i have owned in. and still having the same problems
0 0 [Posted by:  | Date: 03/29/06 06:46:47 PM]
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