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Discussion on Article:
ASUS SK8N + AMD Opteron 144: Unirocessor Workstation on AMD Opteron and NVIDIA nForce3 Professional

Started by: shanky | Date 07/21/03 10:39:38 PM

Comments: 48 | Last Comment: 08/25/06 09:12:42 AM

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[1-20 | 21-29]

You really needed to use the same type of ram on all these machines. I mean why not keep a level playing field? Also Registered/ECC DDR ram have much higher latencies than CS2 DDR400 ram. The tests in amdzone.com are not agreeing with these tests and the only reason I can think of is that they got it to run at 400 DDR as they say. I think you need to run these tests again with the same type of ram on all mainboards.

[Posted by: shanky

| Date: 07/21/03 10:39:38 PM]

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+ expand thread (2 answers)

Exactly, though I have to say that the benchmarks are very complete.
Also, first Athlon64s are said to be released as dual channel CPUs.

[Posted by: goofee

| Date: 07/22/03 03:03:26 AM]

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no comment

[Posted by: :)

| Date: 07/22/03 04:25:03 AM]

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very biased conclusion. best gaming processor!? it only won a few benchmarks and it's not even by a solid margin.

[Posted by: x

| Date: 07/22/03 05:48:14 AM]

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Gavric, P4 and AthlonXP support 333 ECC memory, so why wasn't this an option or why were these not at least included for comparison.
If you did make this test to show workstation capability, I wonder what's wrong with ECC memory.

[Posted by: goofee

| Date: 07/22/03 05:52:10 AM]

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Your review is on an already outdated Opteron motherboard and processor that only supports DDR333.

From AMDZONE's latest review:

"Here is a look at the nForce 3 Professional 150 demo board marked PM30 Sledgehammer WS. Features are quit similar to the Asus SK8N, but it is definitely not the same design as that board. You get 4 DIMMs for 8GB of Registered DDR400 memory, AGP Pro, 6 PCI slots, 6 channel audio, and an integrated NIC. Nvidia sent the board with the Opteron 144 already installed with a basic Foxconn heatsink. They also provided 4 sticks of Infineon registered DDR400 Cas 2.5 memory."

As you can see the board has been updated for workstations and DDR400 is supported. The results are definitely different.

I also have to take issue with your apples to oranges comparison. The Opteron is not designed as a desktop processor so desktop benchmarks in a comparison against desktop processors would seem to have little or no meaning in the environment in which the Opteron is meant to be used. A fair comparison would have been the Opteron against an Intel Xeon on a workstation board with ECC memory on both.

The only thing you have shown for all of your work IMO is that desktop computers can be faster than workstations in some instances, which I think most of us already knew.

The only thing I can conclude is that you either intentionally set out to show the Opteron in a bad light, you didn't have the proper equipment to do a valid comparison but decided to do it anyway, or you are too inexperienced to be doing comparison reviews.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but this was a partiularly bad review IMO.

[Posted by: Mitch

| Date: 07/22/03 06:58:54 AM]

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The results change here with DDR-400 registered memory been used

(ASUS SK8N Rev1.03)

http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.cfm?ArticleID=1313

[Posted by: Pirox

| Date: 07/22/03 07:24:04 AM]

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+ expand thread (2 answers)

- collapse thread

If you could give me a hint where I could buy Registered DDR400, I would be glad to test Opteron this this memory. So far, DDR333 is the fastest memory for Opteron. Especially since ASUS SK8N doesn't support DDR400 with the BIOS versions newer than 1.01. It is probably not for nothing. And AND also claims that DDR333 is the fastest memory for Opteron. If we manage to get a reference nForce3 based mainboard from NVIDIA, we will also test its performance, of course.

[Posted by: Gavric

| Date: 07/23/03 11:18:35 AM]

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Gavric: Pirox is incorrect; if you go to his link, AMDjunk.com cites Corsair XMS DDR400, which is unbuffered. I don't know anyone who makes Registered DDR400, making my initial reply to you (Post #1) incorrect; my apologies. I made the mistake of taking Pirox's word for it. I was wrong, as much as I hate to say it.

http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1313&p age=2
says, "For the Athlon and P4 box we used Corsair's TwinX XMS3206v1.1 256MB DDR400 sticks" and makes no mention *that I can find* of that RAM being Registered.

Corsair's own website has no mention of this RAM - http://www.corsairmicro.com/xms/xms_modules.html - the link, http://amdzone.pricegrabber.com/search_attrib.php?page_id=43& amp;form_keyword=corsair+twinx&ut=18ce791a202687c2, supplied by AMDjunk.com does *not* link you to any "XMS3206" RAM. So now we have a misquote to another review misquoting the availability of the RAM they had and I'm wondering if it even exists.

I hope that is a step towards vindication for you Gavric.

[Posted by: bhame

| Date: 07/25/03 01:40:00 PM]

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I've got a question about how you're testing DivX files. Are you testing with all the extra encoding features on? (ex. Psychovisual effects, BiDirectional Encoding, Using YV12 input, etc...) I'm more interested in fitting as much quality in as small of a space as possible. The extra features require smarter processors rather than beefy processors.

[Posted by: QuantumFX

| Date: 07/22/03 08:23:45 AM]

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Yes, I agree with the previous post, most reviews with the divx benchmark don't give details about quality settings. Quality settings need to be included for an idea of real world performance.These quality settings are fpu intensive and I suspect the athlon/opteron will actually be faster

[Posted by: jamawass

| Date: 07/22/03 08:38:27 AM]

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10.

In my opinion, the new opteron processor is just like P4 when it first came out. Since none of the software now is programed to take adventage of the embedded memory controller, and its 64bit processing ability, its just like when P4 first came out. Sonner or later, software will adapt to it and the score should be a long higher. this is a new class of processor after all, it has a great chance to experience what Intel had experienced when they switched from PIII to P4

[Posted by: Makubex

| Date: 07/22/03 10:53:31 AM]

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+ expand thread (5 answers)

- collapse thread

Makubex; I'm sorry but making an analogy from the software industry adopting AMD64 compared to the software industry adopting the Pentium4 processor is absurd.

SSE2 was about the only 'major' instruction in the P4's skill set that had to be 'adopted to'.

The Opteron has a plethora of major instructions yet to be optimized for which encompass many, many more purposes than that of something like SSE2. It will take significantly longer (and cost significantly more) for the software industry to optimize to Opteron than it did to optimize for Pentium4.

Additionally, although a developer *could* optimize for a specific MCH, it would be unwise. The vast majority of software shrugs their shoulders as to what MCH is used; AMD's integrated MCH is transparent to these benchmarks as far as code optimization is concerned.

____________________________________
Please correct me if I'm talking crazytalk here.

[Posted by: bhame

| Date: 07/22/03 11:23:18 AM]

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My observations lead me to believe most of the work that is needed to convert an x86 application to make use of the extra features of x86-64 can be handled by the compiler.The same can't be said really for adhusting an application to make good use of the P4's SSE2 FP units, so I don't see where the "significantly longer" is coming from.

[Posted by: Dip

| Date: 07/22/03 06:51:32 PM]

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Makube and bhame, I don't think you even write a program to take advantage of a memory controler.
Instead you make a program have better memory access which, in the case of Opteron, does not lie in its low-latency memory controller but in the possibility of accessing 64bit of memory (read or write) at the same speed 32bit chips get get only half the amount of memory.

[Posted by: goofee

| Date: 07/23/03 11:12:15 AM]

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I agree, never disagreed, and that is what I was alluding to by saying,

"Additionally, although a developer *could* optimize for a specific MCH, it would be unwise. The vast majority of software shrugs their shoulders as to what MCH is used; AMD's integrated MCH is transparent to these benchmarks as far as code optimization is concerned."

...pretty self-explanatory, I thought.

I was countering Makubex's statement,

"In my opinion, the new opteron processor is just like P4 when it first came out. Since none of the software now is programed to take adventage of the embedded memory controller..."

which we now understandably agree between each other is a rather invalid comment (in the least the portion quoted).

Suffice?

[Posted by: bhame

| Date: 07/25/03 01:44:32 PM]

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Twice the amount if memory?!
I beg to differ!
2^32 = 4294967296 bytes
2^64 = 1.84467E+19 bytes

That is 4294967296 times as much memory.

Definatly not twice as much!

[Posted by: Prosthetic Head

| Date: 08/08/03 04:18:06 PM]

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11.

The lack of true server benchmarking and a Xeon-based competitor ruins this article for me.

Why run gaming benchmarks on a low-end server platform when the majority of you well know you won't shovel the money for an Opteron when the Athlon64 is available?

Poor premise.

[Posted by: bhame

| Date: 07/22/03 11:08:59 AM]

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12.

why did you tested opteron on 32bit edition of Windows XP ?
opteron is a 64-bit processor...

[Posted by: ratHUNTER

| Date: 07/22/03 01:51:09 PM]

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+ expand thread (3 answers)

13.

As far as I can see everyone is benching the Opteron processor on 32 bit os with 32 bit apps !

Yes it's hard to find any 64 bit software, or not ? Linux !

And if you want to compare windoze whan wait for windoze 64 bit (or try to get a beta)!

M$ should come out with the 64 bit win at the latest by the end of the year ! (are they not saying Sept ?)

When the win 64 comes out, who in their right mind is goind to use a 32 win on a 64 bit CPU !!! (other than some businesses that are waiting for their software upgrade cycle)

The Opteron processor is designed and optimized for 64 bits and the 32 bit mode is only a fall-back functionality for businesses mentioned above.

Do you think that Dell is going to ship Opteron systems with Win 32bit when Win 64 bit will be available? NO they will package the 64 bit version.

In comparison to INTEL's 64 bit CPU running 32 bit code the Opteron processor is ligtning fast.

Come on people, just because a car can run on REGULAR gas, do you think that 0-60 tests are done on REGULAR ? NO they use the best gas that comes out of the pump !!!

So please Start giving us 64 bit benchmarks for 64 bit CPU's !!!!!!

just my 2c

[Posted by: 23on64

| Date: 07/26/03 09:23:04 AM]

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+ expand thread (1 answer)

- collapse thread

Anyways, you *do* have a point - I think your point is sound fundamentally but not too sound practically. What do I mean? You're absolutely right; a CPU supporting 64-bit calls (btw, does anyone truly know if all x86 calls have been 64-bit-ized in AMD64... or are there just *some* 64-bit functions it supports? I've heard many different opinions) with no 64-bit benchmarking is unfortunate. And XbitLabs aren't the only guilty party. However, you seem to know of 64-bit Linux software somewhat; maybe you could put up and exemplify some 64-bit benchmarking in Linux that XBit should use?

I wholly disagree with your ascertation that 32bit support exists as a fall-back. When has AMD said this? The whole point of a hybrid is because AMD forecasts an extremely slow progression from 32 to 64-bit software. This is a valid and seemingly wise ascertation on their part. Additionally, I think the majority of AMD64 fans want to ensure its 32-bit performance continues to compete with Intel because they agree with AMD's forecast, which only makes sense.

Don't pull the "Itanium running 32-bit code" crap; apples to oranges. Lame.

Actually, seemingly knowing more about cars than you, 0-60 tests on cars are NOT done with high-octane gas as high-octane gas has NOTHING to do with performance and EVERYTHING to do with compression ratios. See the FTC's report on it: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/octane.pdf . I'd say it's safe to say Motor Trend, Automobile, etc. know this as well and only use the recommended fuel for each car.

BTW, I'm sure the reviewer knows there's 64bit Linux flavors; if he doesn't he should die.

However, what are you going to benchmark in Linux? Kernel compiler times? Apache benchmarks? What else? Are there more benchmarks in Linux?

I'm sorry, I can understand your point of view, but you're the minority and the underdog; suck it up and deal with it.

Do you think it's profitable for Microsoft to recompile for AMD64? Maybe, maybe not; certainly no proof that it will be, in the least. I think you should be amazed and impressed Microsoft's even doing it - I know I'm shocked they are.

Do you also not acknowledge AMD's poor support for developers?

"Windoze"
"M$"
...good grief; is this lame whining ever going to stop from you Linux fans? When will you folks realize you are the minority and the underdogs and accept that? It's as if the 'informed and blessed few' that are Linux fans think their way should be everybody's way. Sorry; until you give me 80% of what I have in terms of software in Windows, I will continue to ignore you people. Whine, complain, cry, yell and scream all you want, your software support absolutely sucks.

Keep your two cents next time, please.

[Posted by: bhame

| Date: 07/26/03 05:56:02 PM]

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14.

"Don't pull the "Itanium running 32-bit code" crap; apples to oranges. Lame."

Don't pull the "Athlon/P4 running 32-bit code" crap; apples to oranges. Lame. Let the editor use the xeon or something at least. Its a workstation chip pfft. Why does this site even exist?

[Posted by: pirox

| Date: 07/27/03 05:55:12 AM]

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+ expand thread (6 answers)

- collapse thread

Pirox; didn't fully understand you quoting me. Pardon my misunderstand, please, but were you disagreeing with what you quoted of me?

[Posted by: bhame

| Date: 07/27/03 05:58:14 PM]

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its obvious no?

[Posted by: pirox

| Date: 07/29/03 06:43:57 AM]

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If it were obvious, I wouldn't have asked. But I guess I understand better now.
I guess you're in 23on64's boat? Or do you think including AthlonXPs and Pentium4s should only be in a Athlon64 benchmark?

[Posted by: bhame

| Date: 07/29/03 12:08:29 PM]

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I think its should only be in the athlon64 mark. In fact i think there shouldn't even be any comparasions with 32bits processor...they are all 64-bit processors :P.

[Posted by: pirox

| Date: 07/30/03 03:38:26 AM]

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OK, not to try to pick on *you* necessarily, but I do not understand the field of thought defining the Opteron/Athlon64 as "64-bit" CPUs. I lot of forum posters think similarly.

See, I am still awaiting conclusive evidence that AMD64 is nothing more than x86 plus a few 64-bit instruction sets. I'm not saying this is what *I* think AMD64 is, but I've heard some knowledgeable-sounding persons claim this and the only rebuttle they get in forums I've read is, "no, AMD64 is full x86 plus a full implementation of 64-bit instructions" (let's call this "x86+pure64")...incinuating if developed properly *all* software could run *purely* in '64-bit mode'...a la IA64.

But, I thought Anand years ago claimed AMD64 is x86 plus some 64-bit instructions (let's call that "x86+64"). I'm sorry if I'm inaccurate, misquoting or dead wrong, but that is what I thought I remembered reading.

So, assuming the "x86+64" model is the accurate model, I cannot personally call the AMD64 architecture (and thus all CPUs spun off from) "64-bit CPUs".

Additionally, assuming the "x86 + pure64" model is the accurate model; I still would not call AMD64 and its procs, "64-bit CPUs". THey are more accurately defined as 32/64-bit CPUs. They would be true hybrids at that point; which is quite wonderful.

I think most reviewers look at it as a Hybrid or a x86+64 CPU, and that is why it has 32-bit testing. In this respect AMD64 is neither apple nor orange but both. That is why I think it is relevant and fair to test its apple side to a regular apple and its orange side to a regular orange. And I understand your frustration that it's not getting tested against oranges.

One thing I fear will be lost with AMD64 is the fun rivalry everybody online has between AMD and Intel is predicated upon the setting of a common architecture.

I've never been able to enjoy PowerPC vs. Intel debates; they're so different, it's not worth arguing over to me. But Athlon vs. PentiumIII/4...now that was worth arguing over since it was identical software and identical CPU architectures. With AMD departing from dependance upon Intel with AMD64... how valid is benchmarking between 64-bit calls of AMD64 and IA64?

[Posted by: bhame

| Date: 07/30/03 08:41:13 AM]

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BTW, I emailed Anand to try to get to the bottom of how pure/native is AMD64's 64-bit "side". I'm curious for personal reasons anyways.

[Posted by: bhame

| Date: 07/31/03 08:20:00 AM]

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15.

question:
What is the difference between the Opteron and the Athlon64? Why should I buy one vs. the other?

comment:
The Opteron looks good considering no optimized code, running 32bit code, and only 56% of the clock speed of P4 3.2ghz. Inspite of all those disadvantages, it's still about as fast in gaming as a P4 3.2 ghz. Thats very promising for a first attempt.

[Posted by: george_bush_senior

| Date: 09/02/03 01:35:35 AM]

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16.

Kingston HyperX DDR 400 ECC:

http://www.kingston.com/press/2003/memory/09b.asp

[Posted by: CoolioCat

| Date: 09/23/03 11:03:26 AM]

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17.

I am using SK8N with opteron 140
but in order to study fan rpm vs core temp i have to find out how to messure core temp externally.
how i do this?

[Posted by: Paris

| Date: 12/24/03 06:26:34 PM]

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18.

in the table, say 244, but is 144

[Posted by: cla

| Date: 08/30/04 11:17:42 PM]

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19.

this is a new way for enlarge so more your articles

[Posted by: cla

| Date: 08/30/04 11:25:08 PM]

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20.

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Discussion on Article:ASUS SK8N + AMD Opteron 144: Unirocessor Workstation on AMD Opteron and NVIDIA nForce3 Professional

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ASUS SK8N + AMD Opteron 144: Unirocessor Workstation on AMD Opteron and NVIDIA nForce3 Professional