X-bit labs

Started by: TA152H | Date 04/14/06

Comments: 18 | Last Comment:  08/25/06

[1-11]

1. Is there really that big of a market for quad core mobile chips? Considering the extra power they would consume, and the nature of mobile computing, it seems like a relatively small market to me, and that's putting it mildly.

With regards to transitioning to the P8, it is hard to imagine Intel being in a worse situation when those CPUs come out. I have to believe they will delay the P8s for a while to allow the transition to take place, because who will buy a P7 once the P8 is out? They have a difficult time competing with the mediocre Athlon, coming from a knock-off brand company. How will they compete against a vastly superior processor like the P8, from the leading company (themselves) when it becomes available? How will they continue to sell the wretched P7s they are making while the transition is still in progress? Why would anyone buy these chips when the P8 is out? Actually, why would anyone buy them even now with the Athlon 64 out? But, it will get even worse.

Has anyone else noticed that Intel "odd" numbered processors suck big time, whereas the even numbered ones are excellent? 8086 kind of sucked, but it was a big improvement over the 8085, actually, an enormous one. So, call it mediocre. 80186 sucked so bad it was barely used except in embedded. 80286 was shockingly fast, and opened up multitasking operating systems and massive amounts of memory. I still remember using an PC AT and being stunned by the performance. The 386 was a miserable processor, and could not even perform as well as a 286 on 16-bit code clock normalized. It added 32-bit processing, but was so slow it really didn't matter all that much, except to run multiple real mode applications. The 486 ran like a raped ape too, being roughly twice as fast as the 386 clock normalized. It also allowed multiplying the internal bus by the memory bus, because it had a L1 cache (a whopping 8K on the original 486). The Pentium kind of sucked too, particularly since one could get a 486 running at 100 MHz at the same time Intel was selling their buggy, very hot 60 and 66 MHz Pentiums. The Pentium wasn't that bad though, but still was disappointing. The P6 core is legendary and put an end to the RISC era for workstations, essentially. It needs no further comment. The P7 is also legendary, at sucking. It's a fascinatingly bad design that I still find difficult to believe. How did Intel let this piece of crap see the light of day? A huge mystery I'll never understand. Now we have the P8, which I haven't seen yet, but by all indications seems utterly fantastic, well, within relative terms. The days of the 286 type performance increases are over, and even the 486 type improvement will probably never happen again. But, considering the crap we've been getting for the past few years from Intel and AMD, this is a huge leap forward. I knew it would be better than the Athlon 64, but I had no idea it would that much better. The bad part is, the P9 is probably going to be another Intel dog. Weird how that pattern is so hard for them to deviate from.

dude I don't know what planet you're from but the original pentium (P5) certainly did not suck at the time.

Yea the 486 was running at 100MHz while the P5 ran at 66MHz, but the Pentium was also the first CISC/RISC combination bringing superscalar and out of order excecution to X86. For 10 years leading up to that moment, EVERYONE said RISC would replace the CISC type CPUs that comprised the x86 lineup...and intel shut the entire argument down with the pentium- a RISC-CISC hybrid.

The original Pentium might have had a slower clock...but it was more that twice as fast clock for clock, especially in floating point. That and a year later you could throw in a Pentium 133 or 150/166 in the same socket. The 486's socket was dead.

Cocoviper,

You're wrong on a few things, obviously you are not too clear on what a Pentium was and are extrapolating with limited knowledge.

But, let's get back to my original statement about the Pentium. I said it wasn't that bad, but it was a disappointment. When you went from a PC to a PC/AT, for example, the speed difference was stunning. When you went from a 386 to a 486, the fastest from both, the speed difference was enormous. So much so that when we first got ours at IBM (a Model 70-B21, which was the first 486 available), everyone in the department fought over it and finally we just used it as a server of sorts for people to run compiles on. We all had 386s too, so it was not like we were using outdated equipment. When the Pentiums came out, we simply upgraded our 486s to 100 MHz versions and skipped the initial offerings, because the fastest Pentiums were not faster than the fastest 486s, or not by much. Floating point they were good, though. Keep in mind, I am talking about 486/DX4 versions, not the original, which were better because of the larger write-back L1 cache.

So, the Pentium was not a great processor, plus it was buggy and couldn't divide properly. This infamous bug did them no good. But, as I said, it wasn't horrible, it just wasn't the type of improvement the 486 or 286 were, and that was my point, and that is what I said.

Now, back to the mistakes you made, and you made quite a few. The Pentium was not out of order, and was barely even superscalar. It has two pipelines, the U and V, and they were lockstepped, and the "V" could not execute many instructions. Only the simple ones. Lockstepped means that instructions were pumped into both at the same time, and if one pipe stalled, the other one stalled with it, regardless of whether it would be able to execute otherwise.

It in no way stopped RISC from dominating, as RISC was very popular during the time of the Pentium and EASILY outperformed it. In 1995, the P6 core in the form of the Pentium Pro was released, with out of order superscalar, super-pipelined, decoupled architecture which was to kill most RISC processor designs. It was not the Pentium, but the magnificent P6, which, was an even numbered processor.

A few more things. You could not put a 150 or 166 in a 60/66 Pentium motherboard. They used different voltages and didn't work without a lot of glue. When Intel went to a finer lithography and released the 75/90/100, then you could upgrade the processor to higher clock versions. Also keep in mind, the original chipset for the Pentium, the Mercury, was very buggy in the early revisions and was pretty useless.

I think it is interesting to note how poorly the Pentium clocked up too. It was released at 66 MHz and died at 233 MHz (in the MMX version) for the desktop. 3.5x the original. The 486 started at 25 MHz, and ended at 133 MHz. The Pentium Pro started at 200 MHz (the highest part initially released) and ended at 1400 MHz. Most of this is because the Pentium wasn't a useful processor for very long, whereas its predecessor and successor were.

Most of the performance benefit from the Pentium came from the platform, not the processor. It had 4x the memory bandwidth, since it used a 66 MHz bus and transfered 64 bits at at time, whereas the commonly used 486 platform was 33 MHz with 32 bits at a time (although, the better 486 implementations transferred 64-bits with 32-bits of that buffered, so the next access in the line would occur in one cycle instead of two). There was a 486 that ran at a pure 50 MHz, and you could actually run at DX4 at 100/50, but this was very rarely used since the 50 MHz processor never caught on due to Intel releasing a 66/33 which was much cheaper to implement, and offered performance that was very close. AMD and Cyrix made some weird 40 MHz based processors too, but these really sucked because you couldn't clock the PCI bus properly. You'd have to run the PCI bus at 20 MHz to be safe, and that wasn't too appealing to people, and neither was overclocking to 40 MHz. AMD chips also were inferior quality, with well known cache problems which caused the processor to die prematurely.

AMD did make one very rare processor, that I have been unable to acquire despite a year of trying. It was a 150/50 that outperformed by a fair margin the Pentium 90. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, these are extremely rare chips these days, and I can't find one for my collection. Another rare chip, by the way, is the original 16 MHz 386 which, like the buggy Pentium (Intel and their odd numbered chips ...) had problems dividing 32-bit numbers and when this bug was discovered, was only certified by Intel to work in one of the 16-bit modes (virtual 86, real, and protected 286). The later 16 MHz chips were labelled with the double sigma sign, meaning they could work in 32-bit mode, but if you come across the original without the markings, it's worth some money. I have one of these in a brand new PS/2 Model 80-041, which is also known for a bug with the Microchannel bus, where it could not work properly with busmasters. The AMD chip, however, continues to elude me :( .

2. Once again, Intel has to release ANOTHER chipset for a new cpu.

Knowing Intel lately, they'll just take 2 conroes, shrink to 45nm, super glue them together, and call it quad core.

They would be Meroms, but if it works identically to pumping 4 cores on one die, why would you care how they do it? As I mentioned in a previous message, you can probably get better performance by doing it the way Intel does, because if have even one bad core when they are all on the same die, you have a defective die. So, you have to lower the clock speeds to increase acceptable yields. If you use 2-core per die, if one core can not run at the desired clock speed, you don't have to throw out, or de-clock, the other three, just the one is it stuck with.

I guess I don't understand why people complain about Intel doing this. If you can explain why you dislike it, it might help me understand. To me, if it performs the same, why would you care?

It still uses FSB!

That's irrelevant to this point. Whether they were four cores on the same die, or a pair of two cores stuck together, they'd share a FSB. I am asking why people have a problem with Intel slapping together two single cores onto one package as they do now, rather than two cores on a single die, or in this case a pair of dual cores rather than four processors on a single die.

People seem to hate this arrangment, although so far no one has given a lucid answer as to why.

I am guessing people simply are looking for a way to take a shot at Intel and really do not understand a heck of a lot, and this seems like a negative with their fuzzy understanding. It's all I can come up with until someone explains it a little better.

I think a lot of people are scared that Intel is going to crush AMD now, since AMD's assault on marketshare has already taken a downturn, and it is widely accepted that the Athlon 64 is not remotely competitive with the Conroe. It's a valid concern, I am as well, particularly since AMD is being badly mismanaged and are spending money for capacity they will not need. AMD already can meet demand, and they are just starting production in their new 300 mm fabrication facility, yet they are outsourcing to Charter and want to build yet another facility. By all indications, they are already not gaining market share and Intel is dumping their garbage chips at bargain basement prices to facilitate this. Conroe is coming out, and everyone knows it is vastly superior to the Athlon 64. So why is AMD continuing to create so much capacity when they obviously don't need it? Their 300 mm Fab running full speed will offer a huge increase in capacity, well over double what they have. They need another, why?

When the Conroe comes out and becomes the processor everyone wants, what will AMD do with all these expenses and an inferior processor? If they kept lean and mean, they could offer them inexpensively and make money, and at the same time keep Intel from demanding so much. But, the way they are set up now with their high cost, they need to keep high margins and good market share, both of which are almost certain to reverse when Intel has the superior product. They could be headed for disaster with their stupidity, and Intel can break them easily with a price war, particularly with their superior chip. Hector needs to go, and go soon. They are going to be in the red soon with this jackass at the helm.

Go on carry that Intel cross. No one else is going to help you.

I am guessing you have your head in the sand, since everyone is saying how much trouble AMD is heading into, and how incredible the Conroe is. It took people a long time, but they see it now. Look at AMD's stock price, it has been getting hammered because of this.

I own Intel stock now, because I think they have a big advantage coming soon, but I would hate to see AMD go belly up. Intel will abuse everyone again, and that concerns me more than making a few bucks in the stock market. AMD's stupidity has me really worried though, I'm trying to figure why they are increasing their costs with all that is about to happen. It's bizarre and potentially devastating.

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