The article raises too many questions, see comment #6 below and especially the author's response.

It seems that Mr. Shilov heavily misses one important point: if you write an article thinking that your readership is complete idiots, than a) only a complete idiot would buy it; b) you risk facing consequences.

Indeed, if someone could provide a link to a GPU vs. World of Warcraft article I would be really happy.

And I know it wasn't the goal of the article, but a test with different quality settings would be great sometimes (just for a single game and GPU, to get a scale and understand the possibility of choosing between money and visual quality even if it doesn't please GPU sellers).

So it will be more juicy if you know about Next Gen ATI card spec & price for High end - Mainstream card.... I'm waiting for your advance : o

1. The GeForce 7950 GX2 is the only graphics card that was advertised as having “amazing” performance in addition to having two chips aboard which performance, apparently depends on the driver support. With the release of the GeForce 8800, the GX2 owners probably have learnt a lot of “things they didn’t know” along with “reasons” why their graphics cards, unlike the Radeon X1950 XTX, are not supported anymore.

2. Are gamers, as well as testers at X-bit labs, supposed to visit EVGA forums for the sake of getting performance up in a game?

3. We report about something we have noticed. We do not report about the things that we have not seen.

4. We use recommended prices for graphics cards submitted by ATI and Nvidia to compare products.

5. Radeon X1900-series graphics cards have no problems working with the Splinter Cell: Double Agent.

>1. The GeForce 7950 GX2 is the only graphics card
>that was advertised as having “amazing” performance

And it had indeed. What's to disagree about?

>in addition to having two chips aboard which performance,
>apparently depends on the driver support.

Application code arguably matters more. Check your own test results: performance varies from roughly half that of 8800 GTS in Gothic 3 and Supreme Commander to 20%-25% higher than 8800 GTX in Call of Juarez.

I call into question that you insist on bashing GX2 instead of at least giving Crossfire results for comparison.

>With the release of the GeForce 8800, the GX2 owners
>probably have learnt a lot of “things they didn’t know”
>along with “reasons” why their graphics cards, unlike the
>Radeon X1950 XTX, are not supported anymore.

Ugh, care to be more specific: what "things", "reasons", etc.?

> 2. Are gamers, as well as testers at X-bit labs, supposed
> to visit EVGA forums for the sake of getting performance up in a game?

It's a usual practice to use current drivers and check forums and patches whenever some issue comes up. Not at X-bit labs?

Not only EVGA, nVidia forum is a good place to report issues and ask for solutions too.

Subscribing to nVidia newsletter is also a good idea:
http://lyris01.nvidia.com/NvRegister/frmLoginRegister.asp

> 3. We report about something we have noticed. We do not
> report about the things that we have not seen.

This is exactly my point that even officially recognized issue with Radeons somehow managed to escape your attention, Mr. Shilov.

> 4. We use recommended prices for graphics cards
> submitted by ATI and Nvidia to compare products.

Recommended WHEN? Last year? How about a quick reality check for current pricing?

> 5. Radeon X1900-series graphics cards have no problems
> working with the Splinter Cell: Double Agent.

Did you miss my point? Radeons had THE SAME issue and it was solved in both Catalyst and ForceWare -- but you prefer not to discuss it, use older ForceWare where this issue still existed, and not use the solution that anyone who bothers to google or check forums should find quickly.

Starting with 100.x driver, Geforce has no known issues with SC:DA according to nVidia driver wiki. In case you find one, you are welcome to point it out, of course.

1. Would you please stop shuffling facts in a desperate attempt to proof that your points of view are correct? The GeForce 7950 GX2 does have high performance, but only in situations when SLI technology is enabled in the ForceWare driver. When it comes to Splinter Cell: Double Agent as well as Supreme Commander, SLI does not work and the board’s performance drops dramatically from the expected levels. The reason why SLI is not enabled was explained in the article: the driver team is working on the GeForce 8 optimizations, not on enabling SLI for the previous generation.

Do you know any single-slot graphics cards running two ATI Radeon chips that is in the lineup constantly tested by X-bit labs?

2. So, in order to play a game properly you need to visit a variety of forums in order to download unofficial workarounds when it comes to Nvidia hardware ?

4. We use recommended prices for graphics cards submitted by ATI and Nvidia to compare products. Recommended prices reflect classification of a product across the world, not a deal in an online store in the U.S.

3. Do you have a Radeon X1900-series graphics card? Have you tried Splinter Cell: Double Agent on that board? Have you noticed any problems?


5. I have played Splinter Cell: Double Agent last year. I have not noticed any problems.

What is ForceWare 100.x driver? Has it been released officially? As far as I am concerned, the latest official driver version is 97.92.

1. Excuse me, Sir? You are the one who wrote this article, and now it's me who shuffles facts? Wow, I applaud your logic!

As for GX2, I think it's better to give someone from nVidia an opportunity to make comments on its performance across a range of applications -- they probably know a little more about it and details of driver development management in the company. Do you agree?


2. You are the first person I know who managed to call a non-WHQL driver as "unofficial workaround", congratulations. Early driver releases is what nVidia have been doing for their customers for years, bringing them latest versions in the most timely fashion, helping them get higher performance and quality without waiting until a driver gets formal WHQL stamp from Microsoft.

Besides, whenever shadows are annoying, they can be turned off for a nice framerate boost. Simple, isn't it?

4. Pray tell, what are your "recommended prices"? Is there any problem linking to them or posting them along with some hard info as to WHEN they were made available to you?

And no, I didn't refer to a deal in a U.S. online store, I used prices from a major retailer, and I'm sure there are better deals. Take any well-known retailer or etailer and show us whether current prices can justify your absurd made-up decision to move 7900GS to $200-$300 group and pit X1650XT against 7600GT, if you are able to remain on the technical track.

There seems to be a problem with this.

3. As opposed to you, I don't insist on highly questional judgments, so allow me to draw your attention to bugs collected by a reputable source: ixbt (the same bug reports might well be available on digit-life.com in English):

http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-video/bugs/bugs-scda-4.html

the issue was spotted on a X1900 card, and was fixed in Catalyst 7.3 which was released a few days ago. Before 7.3, the game required the same workaround as Geforce: running the game with -ll switch.

Do you realize that once we take a closer look at things, it becomes clear immediately that your mindless trash-talking of Geforce and hyping of Radeon doesn't make sense anymore?

If this is not enough, I can continue:

http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-video/bugs/bugs-scda-3.html

the bug with the crash of SC:DA on X850 Pro still remains unresolved. Doesn't look good at all! How to play the game?!

Or take a look at this:

http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-video/bugs/bugs-scct-2.html

it seems that Radeons have serious problems with HDR in SM3.0, for I must agree that on X1800 and X1900 Radeons HDR in SM3.0 looks no different from HDR in SM2.0.

And pay attention to the last line: there is no known workaround for this problem. So what Radeon users are supposed to do about it?

> What is ForceWare 100.x driver? Has it been released officially?
> As far as I am concerned, the latest official driver version is 97.92.

100.x is a normal ForceWare driver bringing you the latest benefits without waiting for WHQL stamp of approval from Microsoft.


> 5. I have played Splinter Cell: Double Agent last year.
> I have not noticed any problems.

You did not notice any problems, right?

Well, allow me to turn your sights to a user of X1900XTX from ubi forums, whose experience sounds to me a little more truthful than yours:

"I don't have SLI but I have Crossfire and it doesn't seem to benifit from the second card at all. The performance I am getting is extreamly low for a X1900XTX and adding the second card does nothing for the performance.

I have clicked on the DA icon and the game just froze before it even loaded. my desktop was froze and task manager said that DA was not responding.

...

One last thing, I get between 10 and 20FPS with an X1900XTX and it doesn't matter if I turn off HDR or AA or AF or add a second card. It doesn't matter if I turn off optimizations in the control panel. Heck, it doesn't even matter if the screen is showing nothing but sames outline, the game will not run above 20FPS."

1. You are trying to make us talking about CrossFire, about the fact that the GeForce 7950 GX2 performs better than the GeForce 8800 GTS is a few cases, but, I believe, intentionally try to miss the point that the card’s performance is dependent on the driver support, which deserves to be better (Splinter Cell: Double Agent and Supreme Commander are just two examples, there are a lot more situations when SLI and quad-SLI technology fail).

So, would you please tell us whether you know any single-slot graphics card running two ATI Radeon chips that is in the lineup constantly tested by X-bit labs?

A comment by Nvidia? Read safe-harbor statement in the press release dedicated to the GeForce 7950 GX2, I think it explains a lott: http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_31673.html.

2. Pardon me, you did not answer the question again. Do users of Nvidia hardware need to visit forums and download drivers not supported anyhow (which contain unofficial workarounds that would not pass WHQL) in order to play a game properly? But since you again tried to avoid answering the question, but started to talk about unrelated things, can also tell us whether monthly release of WHQL drivers is worse than leaking beta drivers unofficially?

I know even more simple solution: play any game on the lowest settings possible in 800x600 resolution and get extreme framerates.

4. We use recommended prices for graphics cards submitted by ATI and Nvidia to compare products. Recommended prices reflect classification of a product across the world, not a deal in an online store in the U.S. Recommended pricing help people in different countries to understand relative positioning of a product. We did not compare the GeForce 7900 GS against the GeForce 7600 GT or Radeon X1650 XT.

3. Do you have a Radeon X1900-series graphics card? Have you tried Splinter Cell: Double Agent on that board? Have you noticed any problems? We have been using Splinter Cell: Double Agent for months without having any problems.

I appreciate that you know the Russian language so well that you can read a web-site in Russian, but if you know the language really well, you probably remember the old saying about the fence and firewood? We believe our own experience.

If that ForceWare 100.x driver is so sweet, why Nvidia does not allow end-users to download them even using its unofficial Nzone web-site (http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_downloads_rel70betadriv er.html)?

We have not tested the Radeon X800-series graphics cards in this review. Why do you mention it? Why don’t you mention Rage 128 Pro then?

5. We have been using Splinter Cell: Double Agent for months without having any problems with variety of Radeon X1000 graphics cards and Catalyst drivers starting from versions 6.11 or 6.12 on the hardware and software that you can read about in our “Testbed and Methods” section.

> 1. A comment by Nvidia? Read safe-harbor statement in the press release dedicated to the GeForce 7950 GX2, I think it explains a lott: http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_31673.html.

Sorry, I don't understand. The link points to PR announcing GX2. How does it support your earlier statement "With the release of the GeForce 8800, the GX2 owners probably have learnt a lot of “things they didn’t know” along with “reasons” why their graphics cards, unlike the Radeon X1950 XTX, are not supported anymore."

Do you work for Nvidia? Do you know for a fact the company doesn't support GX2 anymore? If you do, please give us some clear proof like a link to the statement announcing discontinuation of support. I doubt you have one, but I'll be waiting.

And if you don't, then allow me to ask why do you think you are entitled to make Nvidia policy-related statements you seem to have very little idea whether they are true or not?

--

On the subject, I'm not sure if you are really failing to understand what I was saying from the beginning: what you are describing is not specific to GX2. Translation: speedup varies across applications both in case of SLI and Crossfire; driver code can affect performance in both cases. Is it more clear now?

If you admit it, there is nothing to argue about. But in case you are trying to convince us that it's just GX2 which has performance-scaling problems, then you are simply not making your point well.

You need figures to see which of the two has more performance-scaling problems, in fact. And if you neither performed tests with Crossfire, nor bothered to read what people say, then allow me to make a wild guess you have no idea how adding another card affects performance in the case of Radeons in these games.

E.g. here is what people experience in SC:DA (from ubi forums):

"I don't have SLI but I have Crossfire and it doesn't seem to benifit from the second card at all. The performance I am getting is extreamly low for a X1900XTX and adding the second card does nothing for the performance."


> 2. Pardon me, you did not answer the question again.
> Do users of Nvidia hardware need to visit forums and
> download drivers not supported anyhow (which contain
> unofficial workarounds that would not pass WHQL) in
> order to play a game properly?

No, they don't NEED to. Anyone with a brain KNOWS shadows can be turned off. Anyone with a brain KNOWS that whenever there's an issue, the first thing is to figure what fixes it, and then do it -- be it installing a newer driver (true for both Geforce and Radeon), a game patch (ditto), selecting particular game/driver setups (ditto), or editing config files (ditto).

People with a brain KNOW they can use google and forums to quickly find the best solution of any problem they are facing. Except, of course, when there is just no way around to enjoy a game (crash of SC:DA on X850 Pro: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/digest3d/0207/itogi-video-g allery-bugs.html ).

Heck, if there's anything what anyone with a brain doesn't NEED, it's to rely on your ridiculous advices for imbeciles like

"So, despite the excellent speed of the GeForce 8800 GTX we cannot call it a gamer’s choice (just like we cannot regard the GeForce 8800 GTS as such) because you can have problems with it not only in Call of Juarez."


> 4. We use recommended prices for graphics cards submitted by ATI and Nvidia to compare products. Recommended prices reflect classification of a product across the world, not a deal in an online store in the U.S. Recommended pricing help people in different countries to understand relative positioning of a product. We did not compare the GeForce 7900 GS against the GeForce 7600 GT or Radeon X1650 XT.

LOL Now that's a PR talk! Lots of general words and evading the answer altogether.

Let me repeat: can you tell us what are your "recommended prices" and why you use them instead of normal street prices?

You write your articles for people who want to order a card in an online store, or walk in a shop with money and walk out with a card, right? If you agree, then what is this absurd focus on mysterious "recommended prices", which you can't even put here, all about?

Anyway: whatever your secret "recommended prices" are, the reality is that these days, X1650XT has to compete head-on with 7900GS for the money of people who want a $150 card, and X1650Pro/X1600XT must fight against 7600GT for the bucks of $100 buyers, however hard it may be to admit. $100 and $150 are not exact prices of course, but nice ballpark figures.

I'm not even trying to convince you in case you -- being a graphics card reviewer -- are not aware of current pricing. Feel free to check prices in any retailer/etailer you like and if you manage to find at least a single store where prices are such that X1650XT competes with 7600GT rather than 7900GS, 7600GT competes with X1650XT rather than X1650Pro/X1600XT, and 7900GS competes with X1950Pro rather than X1650XT as in your article, then you will have one hell of a good excuse!

> 3. Do you have a Radeon X1900-series graphics card? Have you tried Splinter Cell: Double Agent on that board? Have you noticed any problems? We have been using Splinter Cell: Double Agent for months without having any problems.

LOL "Not noticing" various issues associated, for some reason, predominantly with Radeons is exactly what I exposed about you and your article!

You used Catalyst 7.1, right? And you didn't notice any issues on Radeons, correct?

Well, here is something from 7.2 relnotes:

"Splinter Cell Double Agent: Corruption is no longer noticed when playing the game with AA enabled. Further details can be found in topic number 737-25104"

( http://www2.ati.com/relnotes/catalyst_72_release_notes.htm l )

It is always the best policy to tell the truth, unless, of course, you are an exceptionally good liar.
--Jerome K. Jerome.

> If that ForceWare 100.x driver is so sweet, why Nvidia does not
> allow end-users to download them even using its unofficial Nzone web-site
> (http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_downloads_rel70betadriv er.html)?

That's a ridiculous question to ask me, actually. Try asking Nvidia or Nzone.

> We have not tested the Radeon X800-series graphics cards in this review.
> Why do you mention it?

Because I think people have a right to know not only what YOU want to tell them.


5. You know, what's curious about your SC:DA "problem" with 8800 GTX is that the -ll switch solution was known back in November 2006 http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/954105331/m/777105 1505

"Re: Fix for d3ddrv.dll error and odd box ingame with dark graphics
arobyte Posted Fri November 17 2006 08:11

I had both of these issues. I had a BFG7900 GT OC SLI card the game will lauch fine but be too dark with a wierd box on the top left. To fix that, I disable AA (antialiasing) and it worked fine. I then upgraded to an eVGA 8800 GTX yesterday and now the single player won't launch. To fix the d3ddrv.dll error, after reading extensively here, I seem to have come across the solution. Make a shortcut to the splintercell4.exe file so it reads ( "C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell Double Agent\SCDA-Offline\System\SplinterCell4.exe" -ll ) It should work. I don't know why but kudos to those who found that solution.

Please recommend this to others if it helps."

so why the hell are you selling in April 2007 that SC:DA won't work on a 8800 GTX? What's your freaking goal here?

One more time you try to attribute to me a thing I did not say, evade my question or try to lead the discussion in a different direction, I will stop responding to you due to the lack of any sense to do so.

1. Nvidia used to sell the GeForce 7950 GX2 board with two chips, which performance is fully dependant on software support for SLI. A number of applications do not benefit from SLI or CrossFire.

Facts:

- The GeForce 7950 GX2 has dramatic performance drops under Windows XP (Splinter Cell: Double Agent and Supreme Commander are just two examples, there are a lot more situations when SLI and quad-SLI technologies fail).

- The GeForce 7950 GX2 does not have performance advantage over much more affordable GeForce 7900 GT under Windows Vista (since “DirectX 9 and OpenGL Nvidia SLI support for GeForce 6 and 7 series GPUs […] will be available in a
future driver - http://us.download.nvidia.com/Windows/100.65/100.65_ForceWa re_Release_Notes.pdf.)

Those two situations were described in safe harbor statement that you ignored.

So, would you please finally tell us whether you know any single-slot graphics card running two ATI Radeon chips in CrossFire mode that is in the lineup constantly tested by X-bit labs?

2. So, what the GeForce 8800 owners should do? Patch the game (did not help), install new drivers (the version we used did not help), search forums and visit forums, disable certain graphics features of a game. Is this a gamer’s choice?

4. We use recommended prices for graphics cards submitted by ATI and Nvidia to compare products. Recommended prices reflect classification of a product across the world. Recommended pricing help people in different countries to understand relative positioning of a product in their region.

Recommended prices submitted by AMD:

Radeon X1950 XTX - $399
Radeon X1900 XT 256MB/X1950 XT 256MB - $249 ~ $299 – no clear pricing set
Radeon X1950 Pro - $199
Radeon X1650 XT - $149

Recommended prices submitted by Nvidia:

GeForce 8800 GTX - $599
GeForce 8800 GTS - $449
GeForce 7950 GT - $299
GeForce 7900 GS - $199
GeForce 7600 GT - $159
GeForce 7600 GS - $129
GeForce 7300 GPUs - less than $99

We have added certain graphics cards into the lineup and classified them according to their recommended prices and positioning (e.g., the GeForce 7950 GX2 had MSRP of $549 and was positioned as top-of-the-range product).

Do you really think that the Radeon X1650 XT competes against the GeForce 7900 GS, not the GeForce 7600 GT? Let’s have reality check:

Ireland:

GeForce 7600 GT – €134 (http://www.elara.ie/products/detailsfull.asp?productcode=M MEN350274)
GeForce 7900 GS – €160 (http://www.elara.ie/products/detailsfull.asp?productcode=M MEB991801)
GeForce 7950 GT – €253 (http://www.elara.ie/products/detailsfull.asp?productcode=EC E1321287)
Radeon X1650 XT – €144 (http://www.elara.ie/products/detailsfull.asp?productcode=M MEM310464)
Radeon X1950 GT - €155 (http://www.elara.ie/products/detailsfull.asp?productcode=M MEM310489)
Radeon X1950 Pro – €174 (http://www.elara.ie/products/detailsfull.asp?productcode=EC E1285052)
Radeon X1950 XT – €240 (http://www.elara.ie/products/detailsfull.asp?productcode=M MEM310463)

There are countries apart from Russia and the USA in this world and, as surprising as it may seem, there are people who live there and who are probably not interested to read about actual prices of graphics cards in El Paso.

3. We have been using Splinter Cell: Double Agent for months without having any problems with variety of Radeon X1000 graphics cards and Catalyst drivers starting from versions 6.11 or 6.12 on the hardware and software that you can read about in our “Testbed and Methods” section.

Since you advertise unofficial drivers here, I thought you knew why developer of those drivers does not want to upload on its web-site. For me the reason is obvious: because the driver causes problems in certain situations (but does not cause in other).

4. Because release notes for the drivers we used did not contain a tip about this unofficial workaround. Are Nvidia GeForce owners have to read release notes for every driver before use (and visit forums, BBSes, discussion boards, etc)?

> I will stop responding to you due to the lack of any sense to do so.

Frankly, I was very surprized to see that you started providing explanations at all. If I were you, I would have deleted this article as soon as someone has noticed something, so as not to take even a smallest risk with publicity. :-)

But then again, if I were you, I would be smart enough not to write anything like this in the first place. :-D

> So, would you please finally tell us whether you know any single-slot graphics card running two ATI Radeon chips in CrossFire mode that is in the lineup constantly tested by X-bit labs?

Well, since you are so persisting... It's such a cheap argument I'm wasting time typing now, really. Write down to ask me this when ATI finally manages to design something like GX2, okay? And correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember reading that dual-GPU GX2 consumes LESS power than a single X1900XTX. No? And considering what the power consumption of X2900 is expected to be, I don't think similar card from AMD has any chance to arrive before the X3000 generation.

Regarding GX2: don't even try to switch to something else, it doesn't work with me.

> One more time you try to attribute to me a thing I did not say,

The name under the statement I have quoted:
"With the release of the GeForce 8800, the GX2 owners probably have learnt a lot of “things they didn’t know” along with “reasons” why their graphics cards, unlike the Radeon X1950 XTX, are not supported anymore."

says "Anton". Was it some other Anton?

Now, checking http://www.nvidia.com/object/vista_driver_news_030207.html
we see:

"New Features
GeForce 7 series SLI support
GeForce 6 series SLI support
GeForce 7950 GX2 support (both GPUs are now operational) "

So why don't you just stop spreading lies about Nvidia and Geforce? What for?

> 2. So, what the GeForce 8800 owners should do? Patch the game (did not help), install new drivers (the version we used did not help), search forums and visit forums, disable certain graphics features of a game. Is this a gamer’s choice?

I think a good choice after reading this review is to save it along with the comments page and memorize your name, Mr. Shilov.

4. OK, finally something on the prices. But you either forgot or ignored that I asked you to say WHEN they were submitted to you. Not that I would care all that much about it though.

> Do you really think that the Radeon X1650 XT competes against the GeForce 7900 GS, not the GeForce 7600 GT? Let’s have reality check:

Ireland? Why not choose Iceland for reality check then? No, take Greenland!

However, taking a closer look at this shop, revealed that 7600GT there is in fact available starting from 124.42.

http://www.elara.ie/products/results.asp?srch=7600+GT& anyallexact=all&manu=&mancode=&type=&type desc=&layershowhide=&Submit1=

You have developed quite a tendency not to notice inconvenient things, eh?

Anyway, to check what could be the pricing in other countries, I checked Canada which as another big market, and the results speak for themselves:

7600 GT, $149.03 http://www.vibecomputers.com/index.cfm?loc=hardware&ca tid=749&mfg=0
x1650 pro, $158.62 http://www.vibecomputers.com/index.cfm?loc=hardware&ca tid=820&mfg=0

7900 GS $189.39 http://www.vibecomputers.com/index.cfm?loc=hardware&ca tid=767&mfg=0
x1650 xt, $194.80 http://www.vibecomputers.com/index.cfm?loc=hardware&ca tid=902&mfg=0

> 3. We have been using Splinter Cell: Double Agent for months without having any problems with variety of Radeon X1000 graphics cards and Catalyst drivers starting from versions 6.11 or 6.12 on the hardware and software that you can read about in our “Testbed and Methods” section.

You know, it's funny how you keep repeating the same mantra over and over again, considering that even Catalyst relnotes contain description of image-corruption problem in SC:DA. Whom are you trying to convince, anyway? :-)

> Since you advertise unofficial drivers here,

Good products don't need advertising in order to sell, right?

But seeing to what length you went in the article trying to skew the picture in favor of a particular vendor, I wonder who would need this kind of advertizement, and especially why. ;-)

> I thought you knew why developer of those drivers does not want to upload on its web-site. For me the reason is obvious: because the driver causes problems in certain situations (but does not cause in other).

You are totally off the mark. Vista Beta drivers are readily available from Nvidia's site, you can use the link I gave below. The reason WinXP2k Beta drivers stopped appearing on Nzone some time ago is apparently related to something other than a sudden change in quality (which is quite decent, in case you didn't know). I don't really care what's behind it, but in case you do, try asking Nvidia or Nzone.

> 5. Because release notes for the drivers we used did not contain a tip about this unofficial workaround.

You mean just ForceWare? Or were they not to be found in Catalyst relnotes either?

1. Again recommendations to use unofficial Beta software? Is carrying a Beta driver two months after the OS was released what you call a proper support? What’s the reason in talking about CrossFire if it is SLI, which does not work on the GeForce 7950 GX2 in a number of situations?

2. Another example of evading to proof any of your points…

4. This web-site is read all around the world and we need to offer comparisons relevant across the globe. The reason why I demonstrated a store in Ireland was to show that it is more relevant to show product positioning (e.g., “mainstream”, “performance-mainstream”, etc.) and pricing “directions” rather than to monitor stores in the U.S.

P.S. That cheap GeForce 7600 GT emerged in their price-list later than I posted my message and, in fact, the product is not available.

3, 5. We have been using Splinter Cell: Double Agent for months without having any problems with variety of Radeon X1000 graphics cards and Catalyst drivers starting from versions 6.11 or 6.12 on the hardware and software that you can read about in our “Testbed and Methods” section. ABC books are available from Amazon.com.

1. You are hardware observer, right? And you don't know what it takes for SLI to work and what SLI profiles are for?

Regarding support: the simple fact is it's there, not missing as you asserted. So please stop lying that "[GX2] graphics cards [..] are not supported anymore", Mr. Shilov. You have absolutely nothing to gain from this.

2. Actually, I think I was dead on. Perhaps more dead on than you wished I were. One thing I would like to add: apparently, there is a large intellectual gap between gamers who discuss their problems in forums, experiment with driver and game setups and Beta drivers on one hand and reviewers who ask idiotic questions like "What the Geforce 8800 owners should do?" and consider their readers to be idiots too, on the other.

4. I gave you Canadian prices for extra proof as to how weak your argument is. If you manage to show that the picture you have drawn in your article holds for most major markets, then I retract my objection.

But so far you failed to do so and I don't believe you'll manage. USA, Canada, Russia -- in all of these big markets street pricing is such that we have X1650Pro vs 7600GT and X1650XT vs 7900GS, not 7600GT vs X1650XT and 7900GS vs X1950Pro as you are selling to your readers.

> The reason why I demonstrated a store in Ireland was to show that it is more relevant to show product positioning (e.g., “mainstream”, “performance-mainstream”, etc.) and pricing “directions” rather than to monitor stores in the U.S.

Do you realize that people buy hardware not for your "recommended prices" or considering product positioning charts or pricing "directions" hanging on the wall in a marketing department, but for street prices we see in online stores and local shops?

If you really think that people appreciate such comparisons as in your article, then you are probably wrong.

3. Just one more thing to add: issues reported in relnotes tend to be major ones: those which are well-known and annoying enough to admit resolving. Minor issues which are less of a pain and publicity are much easier to fix without notice as if they never existed.

So people at ubi forums have seen the broken image, ATI has seen the broken image and fixed it, but you are the one who hasn't seen it, right? Wow, you are really one of a kind!

5. Would you please address the question I asked? In case the tip was not available in neither of the relnotes, I would agree that you half-deserve an excuse in case you are really unable to use forums and google to resolve issues like this one in a matter of minutes. Besides, if neither of the relnotes mention the -ll switch, how did you figure it for the Radeon?

1. Nvidia used to sell the GeForce 7950 GX2 board with two chips, which performance is fully dependant on software support for SLI. A number of applications do not benefit from SLI or CrossFire.

Facts:

- The GeForce 7950 GX2 has dramatic performance drops under Windows XP (Splinter Cell: Double Agent, Supreme Commander, Neverwinter Nights 2 in 2560x1600 resolution are just several examples, there are a lot more situations when SLI and quad-SLI technologies fail).

- The GeForce 7950 GX2 does not have performance advantage over much more affordable GeForce 7900 GT under Windows Vista with official WHQL-certified drivers.

Is it a proper support?

2. I think there is a large intellectual gap between those who observe what’s inside the trash bins and between those, who look for the same in the malls.

4. Am I supposed to proof you anything?! :))) Man, go read car reviews – those reviewers include base price and the price with all bells and whistles and compare cars according to their class and expected features/capabilities/peculiarities, not according to the final cost.

5. ABC books are available from Amazon.com. I have to repeat once again: we did not have to use any tricks to get the Radeon X1950 XTX work properly in Splinter Cell: Double Agent.

AM, I really don't see your point. I went to NV and and got this:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp_2k_97.92.html
97.72 is the latest driver. I have no intentions to put an unofficial non WHQL software.

I earn enough money to buy a 8800 GTX, but I don't have the time to fiddle around with the hardware or software. I just want to get home and play, thats the point of paying $600-700.

Call me paranoid, I don't trust beta drivers. And to be honest, I don't believe in drivers for Vista as well. I am so disappointed with Nvidia and 8800 GTX =(((

BTW I'm a big fan of Splinter Cell and one of the major factors for me to purchase the newest Nvidia offering was the promised performance. Well... I can't play the game (official and patched)

Then you should wait for X2900xtx to comeout , it will be great to compare with 8800GTX or 8800 Ultra later on.But for my own opinion 8800GTX is execellent card for DX9 but unsure about DX10

X2900XTX has 512-bits memory controller. Nvidia still playing with 384-bits GMHC, as some sources cited that Nvidia will integrate 512-bits GMHC when she enters into 65nm or 55nm process as 512-bits GMHC can contribute a bigger die.

Currently, the drivers to support DX10 fully are still under constructing. That's why most of the games crushed.

I hope GF8850GX2 will not have the same fate as GF7950GX2. Hopefully it will provide a definite true SLI within the one-card design.

> I have no intentions to put an unofficial non WHQL software.

> I earn enough money to buy a 8800 GTX, but I don't have the time
> to fiddle around with the hardware or software. I just want to get
> home and play, thats the point of paying $600-700.

> Call me paranoid, I don't trust beta drivers. And to be honest,
> I don't believe in drivers for Vista as well. I am so disappointed
> with Nvidia and 8800 GTX =(((

The quality of early releases has been decent for quite some time, and their purpose is exactly to help out to resolve issues ASAP. I don't remember when was the last time there was a reason to complain on early releases for anything whatsoever.

Feel free to shed some light as to what your paranoia is based on (if it's actually based on anything at all).

> I can't play the game (official and patched)

The issue with SC:DA was solved months ago and it works with 97.92 WHQL driver. Check the links:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=f6c6297f6 ccf980f02e0cdcd9a8c21de&t=79500&page=33
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=24574
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=21952

Note that the workaround has been present in the Nvidia 95 series technote for 5 months, as someone pointed out.

See? Anyone who seeks help gets it. Or are you just trolling?

I suppose I need to highlight my point. Please don't be offended and read my thought one more time:

"I earn enough money to buy a 8800 GTX, but I don't have the time to fiddle around with the hardware or software. I just want to get home and play, thats the point of paying $600-700."

What I wanted to say is... that if some company thinks that end users are beta testers, it is a mistake. I don't have to visit forums to run my SL everyday. I admit, customers services by MB are worse than bad, but I have to deal with them only when my car breaks down. Nvidia seems to think otherwise.

Friendly advice, Mr. McClock: let me know if you can finally play the game of which you are a big fan, and then find a relevant car forum to discuss your SL-related concerns, okay?

Why do I get a strange feeling that you, Mr. AM, are not interested in anyones point of view. Especially mine. Why do you always try to force your own believe? I always thought that there is at least 3 options in any question. With you, on the other hand, I get only one.

I wrote about services and you switched the attention to MB, it was just an example. I buy a car and run it every day. I buy an MP3 played and listen to it every day. The point was that I don't have to use forums to run thing properly.

As far as I can tell from your posts you are been payed to post specific information. I may be wrong, but I just get these thoughts. And your rude behavior towards the authors only makes my suspicions stronger.

I like NV, am not a fan, but always preferred NV products to ATI. The problem is, that with all this never-ending chain of problems with 8800 GTX I am beginning to question my loyalties. Perhaps it is time to divert my attention to ATI offerings.

I understand your point ,Beta driver just for short respond and experiment.That the idea why Nvidia making beta driver to create more robust drivers in future.

From my experience X1900XTX vs 7900GTX ATI delivers more crispy looking but a bit slow then 7900GTX.

Actually it is hard to predict which one will be the best but I think you should wait for awhile.Chill

Dear anonymous troll,

before I reply to you (for the last time, I think), I'd like to point out that I supplied my email above and had contacted X-bit labs before posting, so they at least know who I am.

But who are YOU, dear anonymous troll?

I have to call into question your identity because of your ridiculous public statements like "with all this never-ending chain of problems with 8800 GTX" plus something about nVidia that seem to seriously lack supporting evidence, to begin with.

So, is there any problem supplying your credentials in light of your statements? Feel free to tell us who you are. Or do the prospects of being held liable look too frightening?

As for the article, I'm curious if Mr. Shilov will be able eventually to address raised points of this outrageous article as befits an honest, unbiased reviewer. But since the story remains in its original form and shape, does it mean there is some hidden agenda involved?

Equally surprizing is that we don't hear anything from Anna Filatova the CEO, to whom I forwarded a copy of my note to the authors.

And a bit of wisdom for you, dear anonymous troll: there is a way for you to score some points for AMD, but what you need to hit that goal is not cheap shots at me, but credentials and evidence to back your claims regarding nVidia, 8800 GTX etc.

Mr. [I] AM [a Troll-bot]

Obviously you feel no need for my phone number or e-mail. In future you will once again indict that the e-mail is a fake and the phone number is out of services. I know the drill, thank you very much. The only agenda for you is to get rid of an opposition to your statements.

I only wanted to share the problem I am experiencing with the hardware discussed. Unlike you, I don't have to prove anything to anybody. And yes, your absolutely right, we should stop this. I get enough of sexual abuse at work.


To the X-bit labs Team and some eager interested readers:
I feel the urge to underline that if a certain person has a point or a problem, she or he tries to settle the matter or to find a solution, by the means of one-on-one meeting. The "public hearing" is given in time, when there is something fishy. Keep this in mind when you read comments, all of them.

Hey, I've got a good idea, Mr. McClock!

I think you will do a much better job if you describe "the never-ending chain of problems with 8800 GTX" (quoting you) one by one, supporting them with facts. I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to discover what they are. :-D

You're on, go for it. Stay anonymous if you want, but be technical and specific, that's all.

Evidence talks, BS walks. :-)

There is two types of conversation. If you didn't even bother to read the material on this particular web-site, then what are you talking about?

1) Strange to find the company as big as Nvidia recalling products in last minute. Why is that? They are so incompetent that they didn't notice the problem earlier? Or they are so full of themselves they think that everything goes? Graphics cards are not designed and manufactured in a day or so.

Nvidia Recalls Unannounced High-End Graphics Cards.
http://xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20061106114241.html

2) The product that I got, afters spending my money. BTW, I had to change my mainboard. And no, it wasn't an old 865G.

"We were not alone in our troubles with ForceWare 97.02. Quite a lot of users who had bought the new card reported performance-related problems with their GeForce 8800 GTX/GTS on Nvidia’s official forum (1, 2, 3, 4). Moreover, some users of the new cards experienced not only slowdowns, but also saw image artifacts in games."
http://xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/gf8800-games_27.ht ml

Should we talk about Vista as well to further extend the chain?

On more time: when I buy something, I expect to get an "out of box" performance product, not a "do it yourself" kit with a wait-for-a-month-or-two patch.

Only two? And that's it? Man, that's disappointing. :-)

1) Actually, I think any company can be only credited for taking every opportunity to improve a product or user experience with it. And for being smart to do so and thus avoid losing a much bigger buck over it, by the way. Ever heard how much Intel lost over the Pentium FDIV bug that got into the wild? HALF A BILLION bucks, that's how much. $475,000,000, to be precise.

But you know, your take on this matter looks pretty funny. If anyone has a reason to be pissed off at this recall that Nvidia managed in time before they sold a single card, and especially how 8800 GTX/GTS were accepted by gamers, it's their chief competitor. Average consumer would hardly bother. :-)

And hey, as long as design and manufacturing are concerned, do you happen to know why X2900 is not released until now? It was expected last year, right? Why is it taking so long? Is this delay intentional?

> 2) The product that I got, afters spending my money. BTW, I had to change my mainboard. And no, it wasn't an old 865G.

Well, since it could actually happen, let's assume I believe that you are really angry with having bought 8800 GTX. But do you have a reason to blame your 8800 GTX for this, not the motherboard, in the first place?

Hint: you can't expect ANY well-engineered graphics card to work flawlessly with a motherboard that does not conform to interface specs.

> Should we talk about Vista as well to further extend the chain?

YES! Please tell us MORE! I'm not sure what I'm curious more about: what else you can try to sell as "problems with 8800 GTX" or how many links your "never-ending chain" consists of. :-D

> On more time: when I buy something, I expect to get an "out of box" performance product, not a "do it yourself" kit with a wait-for-a-month-or-two patch.

OK, does that refer to Geforce or to Radeon? Or to your car that you mentioned before? Anyway, in case it reflects your own experience, can you be more specific? You complained you were disappointed because you couldn't run SC:DA, but after I gave you the solution, you didn't seem to be grateful for the advice at all... Are you being honest?

Besides, if all you want is insert a disk and relax, why even bother with upgrade of the gfx card every time it's no longer fast enough? Why not get a console instead? They are more than capable of providing exactly this kind of entertainment.

Why are you always missing my point. Damn, I don't know how else to write so you would understand.

All this is not related to ATI vs NV war. I couldn't care less.
Ahhh, We are world apart. I think I should consider the option of eBay for my 8800 GTX and then get a PS3 or an X360. This is a very intriguing proposal. Now I think, you earned my "thank you", AM.

> Why are you always missing my point.

LOL perhaps "Why are you never buying my subliminal message" is a more correct wording. :-)

> All this is not related to ATI vs NV war. I couldn't care less.

Woah, I didn't know there was "ATI vs NV war" and it's not me who's pissed off at Nvidia's recall!

What I knew though is that some PR types can't even behave within limits when it comes to competition. :-)

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=30259

> I think I should consider the option of eBay for my 8800 GTX and then get a PS3 or an X360. This is a very intriguing proposal. Now I think, you earned my "thank you", AM.

Welcome! Furthermore, judging from bidding prices

http://computers.search.ebay.com/8800_Video-Cards-for-Deskt op-PC_W0QQbsZSearchQQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoent rypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfcclZ1QQfclZ3QQfgtpZQQfposZ Q5AIPQ2fPostalQQfromZR2QQfrppZ50QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ 1QQftrvZ1QQlopgZQQsacatZ40156QQsadisZ200QQsaprchiZQQsapr cloZQQsaslcZ2QQsbrftogZ1QQsofocusZunknown

x1900xtx
http://computers.search.ebay.com/x1900-xtx_Video-Cards-for- Desktop-PC_W0QQbsZSearchQQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQ coentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfcclZ1QQfclZ3QQfposZQ5A IPQ2fPostalQQfromZR10QQfrppZ50QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ1Q QftrvZ1QQsacatZ40156QQsadisZ200QQsargnZQ2d1QQsaslcZ2QQs brftogZ1QQsofocusZunknown

x1950xtx
http://computers.search.ebay.com/x1950-xtx_Video-Cards-for- Desktop-PC_W0QQbsZSearchQQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQ coentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfcclZ1QQfclZ3QQfposZQ5A IPQ2fPostalQQfromZR10QQfrppZ50QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ1Q QftrvZ1QQsacatZ40156QQsadisZ200QQsargnZQ2d1QQsaslcZ2QQs brftogZ1QQsofocusZunknowna

it appears your investments have been preserved better than money of the people who bought X1950XTXs and X1900XTXs and are now selling them. So you may have made a mistake investing in a gfx card as opposed to a console in order to play SC:DA, but within the space of gfx card options you made the right decision. Congratulations. :-)

If you still want to play SC:DA, then let me suggest you should check the PS3 version. It could well be much higher quality than PC version, and I wouldn't be surprised if they reworked or extended it in various gaming aspects too!

> Where is the 100.x beta and where is the 97.92?

google forceware 97.92

> Where can I find the last nvidia driver

google forceware download

will get you tens of sites, pick any. Some (like guru3d.com) even recompress binaries for smaller size.

> Ati is superior. Nothing to discuss.

A purely subjective and non-technical argument. And a very questionable one.

> Big mistake! Lots of driver issues. Games issues.

What issues? In what games? Are they still there with the current driver?

And do you really think current Radeons have few driver and compatibility issues?

> I agree with Anton I don’t have to waste time in forums
> to solve issues. I have to waste my time playing games!

I agree with you! Complete lack of workaround (such as crash of SC:DA on X850 Pro, which remains unresolved according to ixbt) that prevents people from playing is far worse than applying an existing solution and finishing the game.

>google forceware 97.92
>google forceware download

But those aren’t in Nvidia site. Doesn’t Nvidia has them in their site. Maybe I will run into other issues?

>What issues? In what games? Are they still there with the current driver?

Yes there are and some are with old games like Riddick. Other issues are textures corruption in many games, random lockups, and huge slowdowns.
I started to think the card maybe broken but when I change the drivers versions up and down and some of the issues get resolved, then it can only be a driver problem.

>And do you really think current Radeons have few driver and compatibility issues?

Yes I had one 9700, and I can’t remember of any problem with that card and drivers. Even without updating the drivers the games always run fine.

>I agree with you! Complete lack of workaround (such as crash of SC:DA on X850 Pro, which remains unresolved according to ixbt) that prevents people from playing is far worse than applying an existing solution and finishing the game.

Well at least the problem exists only with one specific model and card.

> But those aren’t in Nvidia site. Doesn’t Nvidia has them
> in their site. Maybe I will run into other issues?

http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp_2k_97.92.html

If you are on Vista, here is a good page to bookmark for current drivers and news:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/vistaqualityassurance.html

you can also subscribe to updates from
http://www.nvidia.com/page/technology_vista_main.html

As for winXP2k current Beta drivers, check guru3d.com, they do a good job.

But a better tactic is asking advice if something's wrong, for e.g. downloading a new driver when what you need is a game patch is a pretty dumb idea anyway.

As for your concerns regarding issues with Beta drivers, I don't remember when installing a pre-WHQL driver was a clear mistake. 'Beta' == 'better' :-)

>> What issues? In what games? Are they still there with the current driver?

> Yes there are and some are with old games like Riddick.

Do you mean the bug in "Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay" when the game won't start because of "missing" OpenGL driver? That was a 100% app issue, they patched the game.

> Other issues are textures corruption in many games, random lockups, and huge slowdowns.
> I started to think the card maybe broken but when I change the drivers
> versions up and down and some of the issues get resolved, then it can only
> be a driver problem.

Nvidia is pretty open and admitting when it comes to driver quality and issues. Check for example, this page: http://www.nvidia.com/object/vista_driver_news_030207.html

They enlist five driver issues with games, right? Feel free to point out if something, in your opinion, is missing there. And note the number of application issues, by the way.

>> And do you really think current Radeons have few driver and compatibility issues?

> Yes I had one 9700, and I can’t remember of any problem with that card
> and drivers. Even without updating the drivers the games always run fine.

9700 was a great design both sw and hw wise, I can't really argue with you here, and I don't have a problem giving credit where it's due. But the question refers to current Radeons, and it would be a mistake to think that 9700 was free from issues either. Just for example:
http://www.driverheaven.net/ati-graphic-cards/9570-9700-cras hes-black-screens.html

And as long as the article is concerned, what I call into question is "not noticing" of the issues.

Especially the officially recognized ones.

> Well at least the problem exists only with one specific model and card.

I doubt it. The X850 Pro is the only X000 series Radeon the lab used, and they didn't test on any 9000 series Radeon, so I think it is related at least to X000 series Radeons (the issue was not sighted on the X1900).

And do you know any games in which Geforce owners can find themselves in the same situation: inability to enjoy the game with no way out?