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Sauron_Daz
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Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 22639
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 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| DIREWOLF75 wrote: |
Morals and conscience does not need religion to exist.
Did you know studies have shown that on average, non- or nonstandard religious people tend to stick with higher moral standards? |
Yes I know. Of course, this does not (in)validate biblical teachings.
| DIREWOLF75 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| There's nothing wrong with the Bible. |
Nope, just as other holy writs like say Theravada, Principia Discordia, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Śruti, Kojiki, Daozang, Kitêba Cilwe etc etc...
Since your knowledge of the bible´s perfection is the same as others knowledge of the perfection of their holy writ, well, either all are right or all are wrong, or you´re starting a few dozen wars. |
War(s) cannot be prevented anyhow as long as good vs bad is allowed to exist. Question is: which side do you choose. Your country need not to be at war. This is personal. Thank Jesus for that.
And just so you know: I will not engage in public talks about faith anymore, of course, I will also not hide 'where I come from' if asked directly. Aside from actuality, this has something to do with a global misunderstanding of what Christianity is about: that which is known so far mostly are interpretations by humans. I do not 'follow' humans. I also have no voices in my head in case you've wondered.
I'm also not on a mission. The Bible has been spread worldwide, so the need for missionaires no longer exists. I stand by my faith, answering to those with questions only. If I feel I have to. You appear to be one of them. I wonder if you realise that.
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TAViX
X-Bit Gundarm
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 2074
Location: 35° 8'N 136°53'E
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Once, a guy with an IQ above 200 and with big white crazy hair said: "Politics like Religion, are the worst 2 inventions of humanity". Personaly, I only agree 50% with that.
All of those so called "Holly Books" were created in order to ofer some kind of a guide book to all those people with an IQ bellow 90. As we all know the human being is a creature so easily influenceble. If you tell a man that an orange is actualy blue, he would think that you are crazy. If 2 people tell him the same thing, he would think that you make fun of him, but if 10 or more men tells him the same thing, he would start believe that. Same with religion. Are you so naive of thinking that those holly books were written by divine inspiration or something like that??  lol. Actualy the authors were extremely inteligent men for those times, and they thought well, by creating those "Holly Books" was the only chance to give the humans a proper education about what's good and what's bad. The only way people would react to those, is if you told them that a superior beeing sended those orders, and not some old wise man!  Think about it. Human manipulation in the name of good. Personaly I have nothing against it, but when today I see so many primitive people who are interpreting in their own way those books....
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"All matter is merely energy condensed into a slow vibration. That we are all 1 conscience experiencing itself, subjectively. There is no such thing as death. Life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of our selfs."
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DIREWOLF75
X-bit Goon
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 9868
Location: Isthmus of Baldur (modernly known as Bollnäs), Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| You appear to be one of them. I wonder if you realise that. |
I always question anything akin to blind faith.
All religion is based on it, if you really understand that, and still believe, then im fine with it.
Belief based on a book, or someone telling you "the truth", thats when you´re in trouble and might as well believe anything and be a pastafarian.
Because then its not a matter of faith, but about shouting "my truth is truer than yours".
| Quote: |
| And just so you know: I will not engage in public talks about faith anymore |
You just did.
Again.
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| I also have no voices in my head in case you've wondered. |
Awww, hope you dont get lonely!
Well as long as you dont get looney at least... 
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graf
Guru Svarog
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 3554
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| All of those so called "Holly Books" were created in order to ofer some kind of a guide book to all those people with an IQ bellow 90. |
If your ancestors were so dumb who helps you post here? 
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Morals and conscience does not need religion to exist.Did you know studies have shown that on average, non- or nonstandard religious people tend to stick with higher moral standards?
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and where you'll get morals outside of religion , these things are certainly unknown to you Dire since you pick up every garbage at front of your eyes , another example of your low score is critic of l3 henry when he spoke about personal Jesus , you don't do things like that
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DIREWOLF75
X-bit Goon
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 9868
Location: Isthmus of Baldur (modernly known as Bollnäs), Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| you don't do things like that |
Coming from you? 
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| and where you'll get morals outside of religion |
Where did you get religion from? Same place.
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| these things are certainly unknown to you Dire since you pick up every garbage at front of your eyes |
And up yours to you as well mr "you don't do things like that".
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Fuzz
Grande Illustrious Potentate
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 5417
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| graf wrote: |
and where you'll get morals outside of religion |
I got mine from my parents, friends, school, and everything around me when I was raised. I don't see the difference between that and an organized religion saying what is right and wrong. Most of my friends have never set foot in a church, and none of them are in jail or to my knowledge have done anything of questionable morality . . well, no more so than any religious people. They certainly aren't out murdering, stealing and cheating on their wives with their neighbors livestock.
I find the argument that you need to have some sort of faith, otherwise you are morally bankrupt a ridiculous attempt to somehow make religious people "better" than people of no faith. I'm not going to go down the list, but history and present show many many people and groups who have done morally reprehensible things in the name of their faith. So PLEASE PLEASE stop using that argument, there is NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE that faith=morality.
If you can find me a published peer reviewed scientific study, I'd love to see it. Until then, the only reason I can see people continuing to use that argument is the same reason about defending the Earth being 6000 years old, you can refer to my previous post on that.
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If you can't use The Google to find it on The Internets, it ain't worth knowin' |
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graf
Guru Svarog
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 3554
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| argument that you need to have some sort of faith, otherwise you are morally bankrupt a ridiculous attempt to somehow make religious people "better" than people of no faith |
churches are open to everybody , nobody is telling you to stay away
Strange things are going on when "no culture " are seen as "culture"
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I’m not attempting to enlighten others with my personal ideas, or taking up crusades in any particular cause.
Last edited by graf on Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fuzz
Grande Illustrious Potentate
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 5417
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Your doing it again . . .
People with faith live happier and longer? Based on what? Do you have any evidence of this? Or are you just trying to feel superior?
EDIT:
Ok, so you changed your post.
Now you seam to think that I feel that I ma being left out from something? Like I think I am being excluded? You don't make any sense.
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graf
Guru Svarog
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 3554
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:32 am Post subject: |
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sure , you are going to hell
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Fuzz
Grande Illustrious Potentate
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 5417
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Tough to end up somewhere that doesn't exist.
See, Hell is a fabrication. There is no evidence for it. You have to 'believe' in it, and since I don't, I have no fear of it.
Same as I don't believe that if I misbehave, Santa won't bring me presents.
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o'h3nry
Senior Member
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 605
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: |
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I don't believe in aliens. Or global warming.
Yet, I do see "signs" of the possibility of their existence.
Just because I don't believe doesn't mean I am right. Therefore, I don't think I have the right to state my opinions regarding the invalidity of E.T. or Al Gore as pure fact. And, in effect, I should fear the possibilities of space invaders or a global flood. Opinion, though, we all have rights to.
In the same sense I and many others believe in a God, a Heaven, and a Hell that I can't see as a physical person/place.
But we all see "signs" of the possibility of their existence in the creation of the Universe, nature, good, evil, love, emotions, or the soul in the same sense that even though we can't see the wind, we see it's effects on space around it and never doubt it's existence.
And, just because I believe doesn't mean I am right- even if it fulfills me. This is why I won't trounce or belittle others for their views- or force my views on anyone. Just present my Faith as an option for anyone with questions for me to address.
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A man who was completely innocent, offered himself as a sacrifice for the good of others, including his enemies, and became the ransom of the world. It was a perfect act. -Mahatma Gandhi |
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Fuzz
Grande Illustrious Potentate
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 5417
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, not trying to trounce anyone beliefs, I'm pointing out that you don't need faith to have morals. Graf doesn't appear to understand this. Then telling me I am going to hell because I don't go to church, well, what am I supposed to say to that?
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DIREWOLF75
X-bit Goon
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 9868
Location: Isthmus of Baldur (modernly known as Bollnäs), Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| graf wrote: |
| sure , you are going to hell |
Which hell are you referring to?
Last revision?
Or maybe the original? The description for that is "afterworld".
The "punishment" place was added hundreds of years AD.
At the same time the "devil" was remade so the church could fit gods of other religions as the big bad evil "devil".
I can respect Sauron´s belief, yours is blind.
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graf
Guru Svarog
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 3554
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
what am I supposed to say to that?
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"Prayer to be Faithful of Serving God"
http://www.catholicdoors.com/index.htm
http://www.catholic.org/
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I’m not attempting to enlighten others with my personal ideas, or taking up crusades in any particular cause. |
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o'h3nry
Senior Member
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 605
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| DIREWOLF75 wrote: |
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| but our progression from neanderthals makes sense to me. |
Which is kinda surprising since neanderthals and current humans were/are two branches on the same tree. |
Dire, my Evolution knowledge isn't near as developed as yours and I can't seem to find what you're talking about... Would you mind elaborating for me?  
| Fuzz wrote: |
| Sorry, not trying to trounce anyone beliefs, I'm pointing out that you don't need faith to have morals. Graf doesn't appear to understand this. Then telling me I am going to hell because I don't go to church, well, what am I supposed to say to that? |
I understand now, and honestly, I'm not sure how to respond... If that's what he believes then he's trying to look out for you... but if he's just doing it to get your blood boiling... then
That raises another big question regarding what happens when we die:
We are in a situation where there are so many different approaches and ideas of afterlife (or lack there-of). All are presented in front of us- many showing an afterlife with (a) Heaven(s) or Hell(s) and then another option allowing you to reject them all and believe in.. nothing essentially.
Each choice will not allow you to believe in more than one. You must pick a single eternity to put your faith in (and even believing in nothing requires faith).
With only 1 choice and no 2nd chances, why would a person pick believing in nothing?? That doesn't sound like a very good life insurance to me..!
AT LEAST pick the one that you can relate to the best- then, if you're right Hallelujah. Wrong- and you're right back where you started.
Now, I HATE to compare picking your Faith to a game of Russian Roulette, but it makes me think...
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A man who was completely innocent, offered himself as a sacrifice for the good of others, including his enemies, and became the ransom of the world. It was a perfect act. -Mahatma Gandhi |
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<R.t..>^>Fusionc
X-bit Guru
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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So, am I going to hell if I don't pray? Heck, I have never prayed in almost 2 years.
I've been more miserable since distancing myself from Christianity to critically think about it. I now lack faith in trying to find some answers for myself. And yeah, I agree with Fuzz that you don't need religion to have morals. Since starting my journey away from Damascus, I have never threatened anyone. Maybe a dick, but not where I want to physically harm anyone.
And looking back, I'd say I am no "higher" when I had faith to now. I guess I was happier then.
So in my quest, are you saying that I may go to some Hell that may not even exist? So about like what, another billion will go to hell because they are agnostics and atheists and question religion?
When I was not being not forced to go to Church and following Catholic stuff, I never felt more superior to anyone else. Never.
And when I found out for myself how Christianity has conflicted with my strong beliefs in Science and how some mock it, I began to leave it. Not only that, I just felt there were so many . . . things wrong with the concept of worshiping someone in the clouds to not get damned.
And then there are so many splinters (like Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc) in Christianity, each saying that they are the true religion for Christian or something like that.
Furthermore, the distortion of Christianity for one monetary gains, like televangelists. Like that fool Benny Hinn who performed "miracles" on stage. And how it effects news outlets and governmental decisions on stuff like stemcell research and gay marriage.
I still consider myself agnostic as I don't know if such a being exists or not, but as I go on, I am becoming more and more of an atheist.
I am not very happy when it comes to discussing religion. Echoing my statements from my other thread, I personally felt lied to all this time. I can't believe I never questioned any of in my first 10-11 years of my school life. I guess it started when my mom forced me to go to Confirmation classes every Wednesday.
I hated going there. At the time, I still believed in God. I got increasingly annoyed when I had to go to those classes. I remember the unanimous response from my other classmates of their reason going to these classes was to "To learn and and to know more about God."
My response? *slouching in chair" "I didn't want to go here. My mom forced me to go here. I feel my time is being wasted."
But I had to suck it up and got used to it. Again, I can't recall anyone, not even me, challenging the many doctrines in my religion.
At the actual Confirmation ceremony, in which I can't deny; I told my parents that I felt the Holy Spirit. I felt good.
But today, I now dismiss it as something subjective. Like a placebo or something. Me thinking wanting something to happen, and it happened.
Regarding where we go when we die, I have no bloody clue. I remember being drilled in private school that if we do good, we go to Heaven. And if we do bad, we go to Hell. Admittedly, that scared me at a young age.
Now, I see no reason some God would make these two places. It just doesn't make any sense to me where you have to put your created creature and then put it into the trash bin when it did something you didn't like doing.
And it concerns me that the Atheist community at Youtube is being attacked by people like Graf who force their views onto others and dislike their religion being nitpicked and proved wrong. Graf, you mentioned that people like me and Fuzz are going to Hell.
Don't tell me and Fuzz where we would go if we breathed our last. Because you don't know and I don't know and Fuzz doesn't know with certainty. It seems like you're better and live your life better and God has reserved a nice chair for you because you live a better life than Fuzz and I do.
It just angers me that people of religion out rightly tell people where they go when die according to how they lived their lives.
I have no problem with people practicing their religion. What bothers me is that they have enforce their views on people and they are right because they follow some guy in the clouds.
Video response to "5 questions for Atheists"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm1zU5hm1xU&annotation_id=annotation_461307&feature=iv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8kEfH9pbu4
This video mirrors what I have experienced so far.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HWVkS2g7xo&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz8szHU_1Io
_________________
I play games, not benchmarks. So all you fanboys/fangirls, just STFU!!
"I close my eyes, to escape the seas of reality... I dive deep into the ocean depths of my mind..." |
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DIREWOLF75
X-bit Goon
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 9868
Location: Isthmus of Baldur (modernly known as Bollnäs), Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Dire, my Evolution knowledge isn't near as developed as yours and I can't seem to find what you're talking about... Would you mind elaborating for me? |
Same roots, about 660000 years ago based on genetical studies, but Neanderthals died out and probably without having any major influence on the current human genetics.
Regardless of if they had a small or no influence on current human genes, they are not direct ancestors for certain.
http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0020057&ct=1
No Evidence of Neandertal mtDNA Contribution to Early Modern Humans
| Quote: |
| Now, I HATE to compare picking your Faith to a game of Russian Roulette, but it makes me think... |
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This has been an objective and completely impartial message from the propaganda bureau of DIREWOLF75. Thank you for reading. Have a nice day. |
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Fuzz
Grande Illustrious Potentate
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 5417
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| lh3nry wrote: |
That raises another big question regarding what happens when we die:
We are in a situation where there are so many different approaches and ideas of afterlife (or lack there-of). All are presented in front of us- many showing an afterlife with (a) Heaven(s) or Hell(s) and then another option allowing you to reject them all and believe in.. nothing essentially.
Each choice will not allow you to believe in more than one. You must pick a single eternity to put your faith in (and even believing in nothing requires faith).
With only 1 choice and no 2nd chances, why would a person pick believing in nothing?? That doesn't sound like a very good life insurance to me..!
AT LEAST pick the one that you can relate to the best- then, if you're right Hallelujah. Wrong- and you're right back where you started.
Now, I HATE to compare picking your Faith to a game of Russian Roulette, but it makes me think... |
Why do I have to pick one though? How about I pick none, and I don't spend time in church or worshiping, or worrying about what is going to happen when I die. I pick to enjoy every moment of my life to the best I can, without being judged. If I do some things that bring me joy that may not be acceptable to some, at least it made me happy, I and I didn't have to worry about what it means for my afterlife. Pwersonally, I see no benefit to "picking" an afterlife, when in my view there is none. I only get so many years here, how can I justify them worrying about something there is no evidence for?
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<R.t..>^>Fusionc
X-bit Guru
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding Creationism:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=AC3481305829426D
Videos portray why Creationists get laughed at. The biggest one who the Atheist Community call him PCS or posterboy of creationist stupidity, aka venomfangx.
_________________
I play games, not benchmarks. So all you fanboys/fangirls, just STFU!!
"I close my eyes, to escape the seas of reality... I dive deep into the ocean depths of my mind..." |
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TAViX
X-Bit Gundarm
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 2074
Location: 35° 8'N 136°53'E
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| some dude wrote: |
If your ancestors were so dumb who helps you post here?
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Definitely not you, that's for sure!
_________________
"All matter is merely energy condensed into a slow vibration. That we are all 1 conscience experiencing itself, subjectively. There is no such thing as death. Life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of our selfs."
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